It probably is…but I’m not sure what there is to gain by highlighting this?
Getting everyone to read more angela davis or something can only be good
Idk, I guess it’s understandable to find such qualities attractive…is she attaching that to a belief that it’s what men “should” be?
Yeah absolutely, I guess I just thought you were having a go at him for thinking around an issue that has probably been extensively discussed academically…because sometimes individual thought is the best way to explore things. But reading more around this is definitely positive, and something I should do more myself
Nah not at all, I just have a thing where I keep calling xylo a commie
Thanks DB, I appreciate you posting patiently ITT as I imagine it could be quite frustrating!
Almost certainly, but to me it doesn’t change the fact it still implies casual denigration of a whole swathe of people.
I mean don’t get me wrong, most of us here are privileged as fuck, so it’s totally small beans, but (fantasy or not) there’s still difference between saying “I want a masculine guy” and “I want a real man”. One is framed in a totally positive way, the other implies that a lot of men aren’t really men.
Part of it probably is about the context as well; on an “adult dating” website for example, it’s totally acceptable and maybe among good friends, but in day-to-day life where we tend to hold a bit back out of a sense of politeness it might be less appropriate. IDK - just rambling by this point.
Yeah I often wonder how many of my rolling jokes are purely noticed by me
I remember reading a lot about hegemonic masculinity affecting the ideas of IR culture and the system of war and militarisation, particularly in wars like Vietnam being connected to manhood and so forth - I remember an article by Charlotte Hooper being really good will see if I can find it
I got two books relevant to this from my partner this Christmas:
Man Up (Jack Urwin).
I’m not totally convinced about this one…it looks a bit like irreverent fluff…but who knows, Laurie Penny gives a positive comment on the back. It’s not high up my reading list but I will try and give it a fair hearing.
Voice Male - The untold story of the profeminist men’s movement (I think that’s the title…anyway it’s edited by Rob Okun).
This looks really good (for someone who doesn’t read much academic writing, anyway). It’s basically an anthology of essays written on male issues from the 1970s until 2014. There’s a wealth of authors…from a quick skim it appears to be fairly intersectional, so it doesn’t just stick to white male authors…and there is a whole section on LGBTQ issues. The sections all look interesting…from transitioning to adulthood, to male survivors, fatherhood and male violence. It’s become the first on my “to read” list and I’ll start it tonight.
Has anyone read either of these (be interested to know what you think?) Any other books you’d recommend?
The title is really off putting. I know you shouldn’t judge a book by its cover, but that really sounds like it’s come from the MRA movement.
I think it’s meant to be subversive…I agree it could be seen otherwise. Again…I guess I’m judging a book by it’s cover, but I think my worry is that it won’t go much deeper than “isn’t man up a weird thing to say?”
I also got a book called the feminist friendly alpha male from someone else (especially weird as I’m getting married this year). That looks awful…really insidious…like a “nice guys dating guide”. The author stated he spent time with the pickup artist movement before deciding it wasn’t for him. That sets off alarm bells…who needs more than five minutes with those guys to realise they’re utter bellends?
Enjoyed reading this interview with Jack Urwin in The Guardian
I think his description of toxic masculinity seems like the most nuanced one I’ve read yet.
I’m been thinking about this more (well, on and off for the last six months), just trying to implement little improvements in how I present/engage with others to get myself out of old habits.
But, in looking up this thread again, I would at least like to change the title. Maybe to something like “A thread for male issues”? Masculinity is kind of only one part of that…and (as DB said upthread) not something that is exclusive to men, either
It’s why many women (myself included) when single socialised in a club scene that was mostly the LGBT community. Nowhere is SAFE safe for women, but these places certainly felt 100 times safer than anywhere else to have a drink and fun and dance without being abused.
Anyway, sorry, this thread isn’t for me. I have quite big calves but I’m definitely a burd.
It can be for anyone, really Anyone has a valid viewpoint on male identity/behaviour.
Actually, as a further point, is the sexualising of dancing itself part of the problem you describe? For me, it feels novel when you see a situation where everyone is dancing purely for the enjoyment…rather than as a precursor for/imitation of sex.
I don’t think anyone should, either…I guess I started the thread with the idea that a lot of oppressive/discriminatory problems in the world do have a link to “toxic masculinity”…and we would naive to think this is just down to “bad men”. So I just thought it’d be good to discuss ways to improve our gender
Possibly, although I think this is a really tough one because dance, by its nature, can form part of a ‘mating call’, deep within the reptilian brain of the dancer and/ or the person watching (believe me, if you’ve ever seen LegBop™ you’ll know what I mean).
I think that dancing in a sexual way can be really gratifying for the dancer, but it is NOT an invitation to be letched over, touched, leered at or cat-called, and in an environment where you are less likely to have somebody who is attracted to your sex there watching, it is easier to dance a little more freely… If that makes sense.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense - I realise it’d be pointless/fruitless/sad to try and take that sexual element away from dancing…but, at least within the culture that I’ve seen, I can recognise that men don’t have a particularly “consensual” view of what that dancing means.
There was a story a year or so ago about a festival in Sweden that was for non-males only. I should to find out if it ever went ahead…or is still in the pipeline
Happy to change the thread title but yes not quite sure what would be the best one to be honest.