Don’t rate Jon Ronson, total hack.

Still not sure on the title

Anyway…related to the MJ stuff…I sent out a tweet about being angry at how he used his image to cloak abuse…and a friend of mine said (unironically) that at least there were people like me to help them keep faith. It was nice, but…all I could think was:

“How do you know?”

And it sort of sent me into a mental frenzy. Am I being a bit self indulgent here? I reckon only my wife has enough true knowledge to be able to make that claim.

I think it’s a hangover from an adolescence spent beating off as discreetly as possible.

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Just be a good person and don’t worry too much about the rest

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Meant as a reply to @colinzealuk

I took a few things from this, but particularly the last paragraph. Of all the abuse scandals over the last year or so; what stood about this for me was seeing someone who I presumed COULDN’T be involved in abusive behaviour be accused of exactly that.

  • Firstly, I have to be thankful that I am not likely to be on the receiving end of such abuse. When I think about my own anger/disappointment in MJ…I quickly realise that the only harm caused to me is losing respect for someone. Whereas, the accusor probably made similar assumptions about his character…but came out if the situation with much more than just their hopes dashed.

  • I guess what I take from that is that trust cannot be presumed. Just because I, or people I know, say the right things does not mean that I should expect to be trusted. I completely see why women-only gigs, festivals, clubs etc are proposed because it’s pretty much the only guarantee that you won’t be assaulted.

  • The solace to this, I think, is focusing on those few close relationships, rather than worrying about what the wider world thinks of you. Given the capacity for people like MJ to fool others by being performative, it is best to spend time with people who know you best.

Idk, this is a but stream of consciousness but I’ll post it

People don’t just get assaulted in festivals/clubs whatever. It’s on the street, the train, in the office, at home. It’s something segregating men and women won’t solve.

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What I would add to that thought process is that what I find telling is whether someone is able to recognise and acknowledge their own flaws, be they past or present. It’s notable how often the response from men during the much of the #metoo thing was simply “I never knew you felt like that” or “I didn’t think I was doing anything wrong” - they were still projecting their own thoughts onto the situation rather than taking a step back and looking at it from the other perspective. That Arrested Development press interview was really telling from that aspect; most of the cast were falling over themselves to explain away Tambor’s behaviour away as somehow normal rather than really reflecting on what happened and how they responded to it.

Again, I know little about MJ, so can’t really talk about him, but while being super woke or whatever it is that he projected publicly, I’d be surprised if he ever acknowledged those times when he behaved inappropriately as a teenager, or looked the other way when he saw something happening backstage, or whatever - and I struggle to believe that any guy who grew up in the last few decades in the UK doesn’t have a past littered with small everyday things that they should be ashamed of.

If you can’t acknowledge that, I don’t see how you can ever expect to be treated as an ally.

(Also stream of consciousness btw…)

Yeah, sorry I didn’t mean these things will stop assaults…but it appears to be the only way you can guarantee having a safe experience at a gig, festival or whatever is making it a no-go zone for men

Basing my thoughts on this idea:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/statement-festival-sweden-women-only-lineup-metoo-sexual-assault-pictures-a8518181.html%3Famp

I also started to think along these lines; that primarily projecting your progressive standpoint externally isn’t really a substitute for self-reflection. But then I’m again drawn to what Aggpass’ friend said in the original thread about how saying the right thing immediately becomes social capital for men. I feel like, if self-analysis was seen as a “true” representation of someone wanting to do good…it could soon become purely capital itself i.e. people speaking about their previous shame to cover up current misdeeds.

Not a fan of things like this as it’s not addressing the root of the problem.

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Yeah, fair point.

I guess ultimately trust becomes a very individual thing in the end, and it’s natural that if many people betray that, in whatever way, you’ll find it harder to trust people in the way that you’re mentioning above.

I think UP’s original post does get at something useful to reflect on though - most men aren’t actually that awful, it’s only (ha!) a significant minority that are actively and willfully misogynistic etc. The problem for most of us is learning what we can do to change the culture and how to be the best versions of ourselves that we can be.

In other words, try not to let stuff like this completely destroy your ability to place some faith and trust in others - without going #notallmen, toxic masculinity probably is on a decline overall (citation needed), but also we’re much more aware of how pervasive it is and has been throughout pretty much the whole of human civilization now as well.

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That’s true, it doesn’t really (although you could argue that events like these can all help men eventually realise they need to up their game).

I guess the argument the organisers may make is; in the meantime whilst we’re working towards a better society, should women just put up with assaults at festivals because it’s for the good of society in general?

If this was a plan to make all festivals segregated I would also disagree…but it’s just one (so far). Even if it was just one per country…it offers that one safe space for people who are fearful of assault at generic festivals

This is well worth a read on the subject - it’s one where I can see both sides of the argument, but ultimately I worry that the result would be that people are told it’s their fault they were assaulted because they went to Reading/Leeds instead of WomanStock.

I want to see more being done in homes, schools and communities - men being a role model and teaching boys from a young age that it’s not acceptable. That’s what’ll change things, not segregating people. My concern is if there’s segregated spaces there’s less impetus to actually get to the root of the issue and change things for good.

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I agree with you on what change needs to happen, absolutely. And yes, widespread segregation wouldn’t be helpful, though in these cases I’m just talking about individual women-only events.

I found myself bristling at the comments about making all the carriages safe, rather than just introducing female only ones. Of course that’s the aim, and I accept arguments that it may normalise the issue, but people talk as if we’re a few tweaks away from creating a safer society. I reckon it’ll take generations of work.

I had a conversation with someone I worked with a couple of years ago who, like me, has two young children. One a boy, one a girl.

We got onto talking about our feelings around our daughters getting boyfriends and he was talking about how protective he was going to be over his daughter and how worried he was that she would be hurt or abused by guys when the time came. When the talk shifted to our sons, I was flabbergasted to learn that he would be all ‘crack on my son’ - promoting the very behaviour that he was so anxious to avoid his daughter being exposed to. When I asked him why he felt comfortable doing this his answer was ‘he’s a lad, isn’t he?’ as if that’s just what boys should be doing. He genuinely couldn’t see the double standards at play and thought because he had been a self confessed slag that it was okay for his son to see woman as nothing more than sex objects.

It’s very early days with my son, but I am going to do absolutely everything within my power, along with schools and his Mum (who is very well clued up on things like this) to teach him what is and isn’t acceptable behaviour.

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That’s incredible. Imagine being that ignorant.

Certainly makes me think that people are only really concerned about their family/friends…and not wider society. Still though… :frowning:

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Unfortunately I think that attitude is the norm rather than the exception. But well done for doing your bit :+1: