#12

Not surprised as he’s said similar stuff before. I find it hard to hold things against Nick too much as he seems like a good sort in a lot of ways but he’s definitely out of step with me on a few things that can sometimes make it a bit disappointing to open that Red Hand Files email.

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#13

From reading the full post - I would say the values he are alluding to are mercy, forgiveness, humour etc.

I think all he is saying is the political correctness stems from consideration, thoughtfulness and empathy, but that people can end up using it to elevate themselves above others, and it can even be totally abused by bad actors acting in bad faith. His understanding of cancel culture is as a consequence of this corruption, which is the creation of a mob mentality focused on retributive justice at the cost of restorative justice / redemption. He is then suggesting that people, particularly artists, become somewhat paralysed by fear of saying something that is deemed offensive, and you end up with a bit of a sterile, humourless culture. As I said, I don’t really agree with him on this, but I also don’t think he has said anything at all outrageous or unsavoury.

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#14

If cancel culture were actually a powerful force then the condemnation of him playing in Israel would’ve been enough to shut him up, but it obviously didn’t, so it’s hard to argue that cancel culture as he imagines it really exists.

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#15

I think that is a pretty generous reading, he doesn’t give details or examples, he just makes blanket statements about cancel culture, I loaded term that has a framework of debate around it, no wonder people will interpret that in those terms.

particularly disagree with him that political correctness stops people engaging with ‘difficult ideas’, as it is completely the other way around it the anti-political correctness crowd that always refusing to address the points of criticism and instead write it off as people being ‘too offended’/‘chilling suppressors of free expression’

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#16

Can’t really see how eg stopping a transphobe speaking at a student union because the student’s dont want them there is somehow devoid of mercy or humour, it’s not got anything to do with either at all really. He’s made it up.

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#17

I get the impression that it’s more about him feeling that a lot of the musicians or authors that inspired him maybe wouldn’t have made the same things were they active today, and that the world would be weaker as a result (I might be way off there, but that’s what I think he means anyway).

That obviously ignores that the world has always been an ever-changing set of norms and we’re not all of a sudden in some kind of cultural clampdown, but I think he’s done that thing that a lot of older people unfortunately do which is get to a point beyond which any further cultural progress is something to be very suspicious of. As I noted when this was brought up in the other thread, it’s especially disappointing because there’s many examples of him being really compassionate to individuals about loss or grief or forgiveness and writing quite powerfully (I think) about those things, but he doesn’t seem to realise that if he scaled up that compassion to a larger group then he’d be less defensive of people being held to account for things.

There are absurd and extreme examples of some people’s desire for accountability (recently the girl who danced in the Sia videos was apologising because a video came out of her mocking accents as a 9-year-old), but this isn’t what Cave is talking about here. Idk, @ttf nailed it with the yelling at cloud jpg.

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#18

He touched on the topic in a recent question about whether he feels the need to change some of his old lyrics when playing them live

#19

That’s like Bukowski having a winge that nobody writes like Dickens anymore etc etc
Besides which art is freer than it’s ever been in terms of tv, videogames, internet culture - my word, it’s just so devoid of any thought whatsoever

#20

what I find irksome about people making his argument is the lack of perspective, if for the sake of argument we accept the premise that political correctness is having some adverse effects (not saying it is) then ok, but also the right wing agenda to attack political correctness to suppress progress is also a pretty big problem, and a much more damaging one, so people should be more responsible in how they make their argument, but they aren’t and it really shows where their priorities lie.

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#21

Yeah as I say, I don’t agree with him, just that that’s where I feel like he’s coming from

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#22

Yeah maybe a bit of a generous reading, but one based on the context and the position I feel he is coming from, which is not one of hatred or intolerance, or even indifference. I’m not sure how many people have actually read the full post he made, which was in response to the specific question “what do you think of cancel culture?”

#23

I think this idea that holding people accountable doesn’t allow room for forgiveness is a wilful myth.

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#24

exactly this -
Cave is constantly alluding to ‘moral certitude’ etc but just look at the way he reacted when people questioned him on breaking the cultural boycott. He gives all the appearances of someone who’d never even consider that he’s wrong about something.

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#25

just think ‘cancel cancel’ is such a loaded term, that comes with a context of existing debate where it serves a right wing agenda. He should have rejected the term from the offset, if he wanted to make an argument that it is important that there is a route for redemption he could have (and could have given examples of where this isn’t the case, who exactly has not been forgiven who should have been), as it stands it just reads as ‘people are too offended nowadays’

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#26

Yeah I don’t disagree with any of this

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#27

It also ignores that many classic works - Lolita, Ulysses, Catcher in the Rye (of which I have read none) - were often excoriated as filth by parts of society at the time they were published. Censoriousness has always existed, although to my understanding it feels like the first time that it has been primarily targeted at protecting other humans rather than the delicate sensibilities of a privileged class.

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#28

Never knew he had this “anti-SJW” side of him, having only liked his music and not been interested in anything beyond that

#29

Yep - he must at least know what bottom feeders he’ll attract when using this term.

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#30

People are usually very keen to praise the value of limitations in any project so maybe in the end if you can’t make art/contribute to culture without attacking marginalised people you are just not a very good artist.

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#31
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