August 2018 Politics Thread


#341

So prominent commentators of all stripes shouldn’t make public analyses of Venezuela because it’s… too difficult. Not sure that washes, but fair enough.


#342

i literally didn’t say that, and tbh i’m really surprised you would have such an ungenerous take on my post. i said i can understand why somebody wouldn’t bother engaging with the discourse in the media when you’re restricted in what you can say, and literally the mildest attempt to give context to why venezuela’s economy is tanking and why it’s important to expose the nature of the “democratic opposition” gets a hysterical, abusive response. you’ll be met with a barrage of cliched nonsense that a cursory google search can debunk. there is no interest in having a good faith discussion about that part of the world so why put yourself through the misery and frustration of it.


#343

:joy:

Yeah I’m intrigued by MZC because he’s an arch pragmatist who positions his analysis squarely in the way parliamentary politics operates. Definitely puts him apart from a lot of the, shall we say, ‘new post-Corbyn left’? (This is not a slur FYI - just an attempt to put a load of people who’ve come to prominence post-2015 in one bracket). It’s inevitably going to lead to one fissure or another: https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1027281912589639685

I don’t think he’s naive either, I think he’s very bright.


#344

Oh I wasn’t being ungenerous to you personally, apologies if that was how it read. A cynic might add that someone like Naomi Klein would be disinclined to make a public address/argument re: what has happened in Venezuela post-Chavez because it would mean their personal brand would be compromised as a result.


#345

hmmm, well i guess i can see that too. i’ve not read much naomi klein so i’m not sure how good she is, but i know quite a few people on our side who have reservations about her.


#346

Yeah he’s very smart, but I can’t comprehend him placing any trust in Watson. I fully expect Watson to be one of the guys leading the sabotage in the event of a Labour majority government


#347

Thing about the Labour party it’s always been a broad coalition of the left in the UK. Dealing and bargaining with undesirables on an opposing wing has always been one of the costs of doing business (whether it’s dealing with Tom Watson on one side or, I dunno, George Galloway on the other). Depends what the aims are.


#348

That’s a bad thing though. It’s like when people talk about proportional representation, it’s like… You know coalitions just lock in the status quo. Which would be fine if the status quo wasn’t shit.


#349

i have a lot of time for MZC, seems like a genuinely nice bloke.


#350

Yeah depends what you want. I mean I can see PR working pretty well in the UK as a means of nobbling the excesses of the Tories, but you’re not going to get an advancement towards socialism out of it.

Yeah I like him a lot. Strip back him being mouthy on twitter, of course. Think he’s got pretty strong ambitions to be an MP one day and I think he’d be excellent if he did it.


#351

I’ve seen plenty of leftist discussions of Chavezism, where it went wrong and what we can learn from it. It’s just that it’s very much become a kind of Labour Anti-semitism of the globe; you can’t bring up a socialist argument to anything without some turd saying 'Ah but, VENEZEULA! Check and mate." No matter the number of failed states out there that adhered to the capitalist world order; no matter the American economic blockade of the country, no matter the businesses fixing prices in order to try and force a coup. No, it was the mere act of enacting some socialist policies that caused that country to necessarily suffer.

Of course we should talk about it, if only so we are able to debunk the myths surrounding the place. But it’s worthless engaging with the kind of person who’d bring it up apropos nothing in discussion.


#352

I don’t disagree - it’s complicated. And my initial point about about Naomi Klein. Maybe I’m remembering it wrong but about 12 years ago when Klein was seemingly at her most visible she was very vocal in support of the Chavez revolution. Fair enough. It hasn’t turned out the way that she envisaged it and I consider it (perhaps unfairly) incumbent upon her, as someone with a huge following, to explain why. The fact that she seems to have shirked from that opportunity makes me think, at best, that she doesn’t actually have the analytical or intellectual prowess to do so. Which is kinda what I’d suspect. But maybe I’m unnecessarily hung up on this particular grievance.


#353

I think I might be more of him now than I was when he was leader


#354

technically, some of his former molecules may now indeed be part of you.


#355

I’m just there to see Jeremy Corbyn blow the roof off.


#356

as long as you don’t push to the front of the pit past people who have stood through the supports


#357

‘interesting’ how eg, that second one, they’ve clearly just seen the word the word crank and completely misinterpreted their point


#358

if the supports go too the building will be structurally unsound, trickle


#359

oh dear


#360

bastani trigger warning but this video is lovely, and the comrade is a leeds lass :hugs: