Autumn Brexit Thread - The Yellowing

doom
getonwithitcorbyn
dooom
doooooooooom

#1581

No. It’s impossible.

A deal will be struck, yes, but never in a million years will it get through a commons’ vote.

Early general election!:heart_eyes:


#1582

Which the tories will probably win


#1583

Thus solving all of the problems with Brex…oh.


#1584

(shrugs) Would still prefer to risk an early election than wait until 2022


#1585

That, or, most likely, yet another hung parliament.

Other than binning the whole thing off, pretending it never happened in the first place, there is no solution.


#1586

heh



#1587

Hope no one minds me putting a link to a campaign I’m working on ITT since it’s kind of relevant to the thread. Please have a bit of a browse through the posts, give us a like\call us foolish optimists etc.

Happy to answer any questions.


#1588

Sponsored by KitKat? :wink:


#1589

Looks interesting, I’ve given it a like and had a read of the About section.

I think delaying brexit is a good first step towards stopping brexit but that needs to be the end game.

It didn’t touch on the point that any brexit is worse than remaining and I didn’t like the ‘legitimate concerns expressed by millions of leave voters’ without mentioning what they are (are they talking austerity/NHS or those foreigners?) and more importantly whether those concerns have anything to do with our EU membership. There’s no point pandering to unrelated issues and in fact is very important to point out that they are unrelated.

But apart from that, its looks good :+1:


#1590

Cheers :+1:

Going to try my best to explain this inline with the official campaign position.

So there are a couple of reasons why the campaign has taken the stance it has, firstly, whilst we are to some extent an citizens campaign quite a few of us are members of DiEM25 and currently the official DiEM25 position on Brexit is to seek a Norway + deal as voted on by all the members following the Brexit vote, although prior to this DiEM25 campaigned against Brexit.

In a similar fashion to some of the views expressed on this thread DiEM25 saw Brexit as, in someways a failure of progressive politics and similarly a failure to make a comprehensive case for the EU not only by politicians but by activists and economists.

Secondly whilst many of us would like to openly campaign against brexit we are very aware of the difficulty in pushing the people’s vote through parliament given the relative lack of time and official backing. Thirdly, one of the aims of the campaign is to address the divisiveness that has sprung up around Brexit and we believe this is best done by creating forums where the details of Brexit can be discussed openly.

I didn’t like the ‘legitimate concerns expressed by millions of leave voters’ without mentioning what they are (are they talking austerity/NHS or those foreigners?)

So this has probably been the part of the campaign that has caused the most dissent internally. In discussion this has typically centered around three things, the democratic deficit in the EU, austerity and the abnegation of responsibility to resettle asylum seekers.

Whilst we are somewhat partisan, a major part of the campaign is driven by the need to reawaken the spirit of democracy in the decision making which we believe is/should be a non-partisan aim. I do fundamentally agree with what you’re saying though and I’ll bring this up to the others :+1:


#1591

Cool, thanks for that. I do think any push against brexit is worthwhile.

The phase ‘legitimate concerns’ always makes me think of people who don’t like seeing foreigners in their 99% white British town.

And for the three main points you mention about these concerns within this group:

The democratic deficit in the EU - is this in relation to our democratic influence in the EU or other member countries (as I don’t think either of those will be helped by us leaving) or the general set up of the EU? As isn’t it at least more democratic than our system? (which is a low bar of course but again not helped by leaving)

Austerity - I agree, very much a big driver in leave votes - but only relevant if leaving will help it which it won’t, quite the opposite in fact so for it to be a reason for going ahead with brexit doesn’t really work.

The abnegation of responsibility to resettle asylum seekers - tbh I don’t think this was a concern of many leave voters considering the fear of ‘floods of people’ coming here due to the migrate crisis was a big vote leave angle.

I hope you don’t think I’m being too negative and trying to pick holes in it, as you say it’s good to be able to discuss things openly.


#1592

Hm. I certainly think that it was one of the main drivers behind the equivocal support of the EU from those on the progressive left, including Corbyn. And he’s apparently to blame for Brexit, so maybe that is a concern that should be addressed.


#1593

Hmm. tbh every bit of anti EU propaganda then and now has been very anti immigrant/foreigners and I think you’d be very hard pressed to find any leave.eu or vote leave material pushing for more support for asylum seekers. Maybe a few lexitiers but I don’t think it’s at all large enough for it to be a legitimate concern of most leave voters.


#1594

The democratic deficit in the EU - is this in relation to our democratic influence in the EU or other member countries (as I don’t think either of those will be helped by us leaving) or the general set up of the EU? As isn’t it at least more democratic than our system? (which is a low bar of course but again not helped by leaving)

It’s in relation to how the EU currently functions, DiEM are currently working on a progressive agenda for all of Europe which will outline how we think it should work. These will include questions around macroeconomic management, establishing new payment platforms to end the monopoly of private finance, full transparency of EU meetings and various other measures.

I certainly don’t think that’s major part of why Leave won but I think misinformation surrounding EU which lead to it being typecast as a faceless technocratic institution, can be mitigated to some extent by a more open platform to learn about goings on within the EU. One thing that we all agree on in the campaign is that remain should not be a call to stay with the status quo.

Agreed, I’m not trying to make the argument that leaving will help however, one thing that we do have sympathy for was that the status quo benefited everyone where as economic disenfranchisement in post-industrial towns meant to some extent fairly fertile ground for populist, “anti establishment” sentiment.

This was typically cited as reason by Lexit voters, one thing I would say here is that it’s highly likely that there are some people that we won’t be able to reach even with a relatively even handed campaign. People who voted leave spurred on by people like Farage whipping up xenophobic sentiments aren’t necessarily going to be interested in a forum like the ones we’re trying to create…yet but the undecided, the economically/democratically disenfranchised and yes the lexit crowd and we think this will create enough of a majority to change the political landscape.

Not at all, we’re planning to go public with many more events so it’s actually very beneficial to hash out stuff on here first.


#1595

so in the next 48 hours, either May has a deal sorted or it’s a no deal

it’s definitely definitely gonna be no deal isn’t it

i think our best hope is that she doesn’t want to be responsible for pushing the country off a cliff and trys to delay the day itself or something


#1596

Yeah I agree with all your points, although I will say again if increasing democracy and improving the functions of the EU is the goal then we need to be part of it not outside it.

The other thing that comes up often, that you touch on, is the status quo and I’ve seen it said on here before is that remainers want a return to the status quo and that won’t solve anything.
And while agree with the sentiment, brexit needs to seen as it own entity that crosses the political spectrum and that the main goal is stopping the disastrous effects of brexit (and I get that avoiding no deal is part of what this group is about).

And once that cliff edge has been avoided then what happens next does become part of the usual party political process of general elections etc. They are two distinctly separate stages and remain needs to be seen as avoiding disaster, then we can see where to go next not just ‘let’s go back to 2016’.

Another general point is that whatever criticisms people may have of the EU will they be a) solved by us leaving and b) will the negative effects of any brexit be offset by that or are those negative effects worth it?


#1597

Yes I agree with this, one point I keep bringing up in conversations is the material impact brexit will have particularly on areas that voted for it. Whilst he’s maybe a tiny bit annoying one thing I like about Femi_sorry\Our Future Our Choice is that he makes this particular fact a fairly key part of his messaging.

Also agree most of us are part of DiEM because we fundamentally believe the EU can be reformed. The perhaps slightly controversial part of this is probably that the official DiEM position is Norway + following the leave vote rather than just campaigning for remain. I’ll assume although I don’t know why the membership voted for this is because this position is seen as more respectful of the referendum result. Although naturally there’s been a fair few people who think otherwise.


#1598

“People’s Royal Commission”

lol


#1599

:grinning:

Mr Brown also called for a royal commission to be set up to unite the nation.

It would provide a platform for people’s voices to be heard, as opposed to an ‘elite’, he said.

Setting out his plan, Mr Brown said: ‘Our challenge is to reunite a divided country. Our challenge is to see if there’s a way to end the deadlock.’

A royal commission would mean breaking out of the ‘Westminster bubble’, he said.

Gordo really is quite something.

Now, if he’d pushed for a Ruddy Gruddy Bloody Royal Commissionthen we might be getting somewhere.


#1600

but do you not think maybe he’s doing the whole royal commission bluster to deliberately try and coerce mouthbreathers into being okay with it?