AWA 3: Ask Women/NB people Anythreeing #ssp

Any burning questions? Now with added enby inclusion.

Women and NB people are obviously also encouraged to ask questions to gauge other opinions on topics.

Original thread: https://community.drownedinsound.com/t/awa-thread-ask-women-anything-ssp/49489

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Bump as I couldn’t see this when I was looking for it

How do you feel about men doing stuff like e.g. opening doors for you, paying the bill, pulling out your chair etc?

Absolutely hate it. Fuck chivalry. If you wouldn’t do it for a man, don’t do it for me.

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Payment is weird because (assuming it’s a date situation) I always worry that the man in question will see it as him now being owed something.

Holding doors is fine, we should all do it for each other, pulling out chairs is a bit unnecessary and seems awkward.

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Kind of a general waffle here which hopefully ill make into a question. Kinda brought on by the tropes thread.

But i see my niece slowly picking up some of the stuff e.g pink is for girls and comments on how pretty she is etc.

I dont think my sister is a staunch femininist but is instilling that ‘you can do anything’ idea, which hopefully will slowly makes things fairer in the long run.

But i find it difficult to kind of comment on these without feeling like im criticing how may sister is raising her.

So, i guess the question is how do i empower my niece (and i guess get her to eventually show solidarity with women) without over-stepping the mark?

She is only 8, so I guess it may be easier to discuss when she’s a bit older and more her own person.

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I’m keen to hear responses to this too - I saw a post doing the rounds on fb the other week with a picture of Kylie Jenner in a bikini and a female astronaut side by side, suggesting that girls should hold the astronaut as a “higher” role model, but then someone else I know who’s a very staunch feminist stepped in to say that suggesting one over the other is policing what women should be doing.

My parenting approach is probably more like your sister’s - making sure Jimbo knows that any job can be done by any person. We had a deep conversation the other day about why you don’t need the word “actress” because acting is something that anyone can do and “actor” covers it either way. And if they grow up liking pink, then they’ll thrive if they’re being supported in that rather than being pushed away from what they like. I may be wrong though - as I say, I’m keen to hear other viewpoints

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How do you feel when some men say “I have a wife and daughters” as a way of explaining why they’re no longer a misogynist? Why do you think they lacked any compassion or empathy for women before this?

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I think this and the next generation of young people will be more attuned to the message that they don’t need to follow traditional gender roles so I don’t think they’ll need much convincing. I think it can go too far one way as well, like how @rob.orch mentioned this old-school-feminism idea of some women role models being better than others.

One thing I’ve learned having three nieces is that society will still probably push them towards pink and dolls and things even if they initially show an interest in green and tractors, but if they like Frozen and doll houses then buy them Frozen merch and doll house furniture, they’ll have more fun with it than yet another book about “inspiring women through history” (which usually prize women who have been successful in certain areas over others). There’s plenty of time for them to find other things they like and they’ll work it out as long as their loved ones give them room to grow and don’t force things on them.

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I feel a bit sad that that’s what it takes for a man to recognise a woman as a whole person.

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Opening doors: fine if they’d do it for anyone, not fine if they make a big show of it or say “ladies first” or get very insistent that I go first. One stranger in my office insisted that I go through the door before him (i think I’d initially held it open for him?) and then said “I’m old fashioned” by way of explanation. I’m not, don’t fucking patronise me.

Paying the bill: are we taking it in turns, is it a trivial amount or is there some other reason not to split it? Fine. My boyfriend paid for dinner on our first date as he said it was to say thank you for something or other and it was only about a fiver. Otherwise I’d rather split it and not risk it being seen as payment for something, as @Squandered says.

Pulling out chairs: No. Just why? What are you doing? Fuck off.

If they think they need to open doors and pull out chairs for women, what other beliefs do they have about the role of men and women in society? The colleagues who insist on letting female colleagues go through doors first, are they the same ones who will turn to look at the only woman in the meeting when someone suggests that someone should take minutes? The dates who want to pay for dinner, how will they react if they find out I earn more than them? Will they see it as my job to keep the house clean?

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I remember when Blue Ivy Carter was born and Jay-Z said that he wasn’t going to use the word “bitch” in his music anymore out of some newfound respect for women, the man’s married to Beyoncé!

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I hate it if it’s gender based as @shes_so_high says, although payment is awkward. As @Squandered says, I don’t want a lad to think I owe him something but a lot of men can also be extremely difficult on the topic and if they’re going to be resistant I’m not going to fall over myself to fight about it.

On the one terrible dating app date I went on, I ordered my own drinks from the app so that this situation didn’t happen and it was horrendously, horrendously awkward.

I think it’s laughable. Firstly, what @Leopardprint said exactly. Secondly, most misogynists have female family members, so when I hear it it doesn’t exactly convince me that they’ve really learned anything about the female experience.

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How did you know you were non-binary? Or rather, when did you decide to unshackle yourself from a binary view of the world?

For a long time I’ve not particularly felt much kinship with “typical” masculinity (read: quite toxic masculinity) and at times friends have described me as a misandrist (which I realise is a whole other conversation).

I thought some of the different gender systems described in this post was enlightening and I’m keen to learn more https://www.instagram.com/p/CP8xWUmrfgo/

How are you doing?

Is it the same as politicians discussing their ‘black friends’ when they’re accused of racism? I can’t decide if the logic is the same.

I think the context is usually a bit different - normally the wife/daughter thing is an explanation of why the person is no longer like they were, while “some of my best friends are black” is wheeled out as a response to an accusation of current racism. I think the “black friends” thing is more similar to (but still different from) “how can i be sexist? I love women!”

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FYI I’m pretty sure Jay-Z never actually said this, though it was heavily rumoured at the time. Reference.

It’s very similar.
I mean, the number of people I’ve met who literally just never spoken to a black person before meeting me, and therefore never had any of their (usually ridiculous) stereotypes challenged.
And then come away like, “Oh hey, you’re just like me! Who knew?”
(Obviously they don’t always say that, but sometimes you can see this thought forming on their face)
Or as a woman in a work environment and a man says something to the effect of “Oh, you really DO know what you’re talking about.”
I’m generally surprised that I haven’t gone a murderous rampage yet. Could still happen.
Humans are mostly very similar. Don’t get why this is so hard to grasp.

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