used to listen to that a lot when I was really depressed before I dropped out of uni, used to just lie in bed listening to the second half of that album, very comforting
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This was definitely the case for me, I never gave it a chance at the time. I only listened to it last year in the end, thanks to the advocacy of you and @TAFH33, and really enjoy the first seven songs. The second half of the album is weaker, but still has its moments.
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A bit late, but pretty much what ttf said. I don’t mind it on a personal level, but sometimes on a bigger level the principle of it starts getting to me (and the irony too given that what ultimately ends up happening is exactly what we’re trying to say Billy has experienced). If anything, as a result of everything I’ve become overly cautious in deciding when to bring up the Pumpkins, even when they’re a natural response.
This could easily be a multi-paragraph post so I’ll just say for now that there’s definitely a double standard when it comes to them. It is what it is I guess. (I’m not saying he’s the only artist that happens to, obviously, just want to throw that out there preventatively.)
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I never made this specific connection before, I don’t think I’ll hear it the same way again.
I’ve listened to Dross (brilliant as you say) and Cash Car Star, will have a listen to the others now. Shame about the sound quality though…
Does dross mean the same in US English as British English? It’s the kind if word my dad uses to describe bad bowling in cricket, so seems quite incongruous to me as a Pumpkins song title 
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Silverfuck is incredible, it’s just so massive sounding. That span from the first chorus exploding to when it goes quiet might be the most exciting sequence in all of music for me.
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Put some heavier fuzz/distortion on the guitar during the chorus and I could see this as a smashing pumpkins track, has a similar kind of melody
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Thanks for the link. The songs seem to have a warmer feel to them than Machina - closer to the classic euphoric Pumpkins guitar sound.
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I’ll move this over here so people don’t get angry. I think he has actually, at least the very worst of it (from what I understand he was going through a really dark period back at the beginning of last decade), but he’s instead sort of transitioned into edgy / devil’s advocate / that’s what “they want you to believe” takes.
I think it’s more about viewing himself as a free thinker than any sort of actual ideology, given how much he contradicts himself.
I really need to finally give them a shot, I’ve been meaning to for years. I’ll bump this one up to the top of the list once I get through taking in Benji properly.
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The latter stuff is quite different but obviously I’m a big fan.
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Just paid £20 for a bootleg CD copy of Machina 2 on eBay, like it’s 2002.
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Siamese Dream is so fkn good tho
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Have you seen that Billy is doing a deep dive into each of the albums on his Instagram page and he’s starting with Gish tonight at 9pm CST (unfortunately 3am for UK)?
I think if you can’t watch it live (I know I won’t!), I think it might go into the IGTV part
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Agree with a lot of this, except for the albums you’ve chosen as the great run of three. To my mind it’s Gish, Siamese Dream and Pisces Iscariot (even though not a “proper” album). Happy to extend it to the first album of Mellon Collie. After that there’s a bit of a dip until Machina,
just FAO the 2 'T’s, I’m now gradually getting into Smashing Pumpkins a bit more.
Think one of you suggested Mayonaise, and that was all good. Any chance of more songs that I might not know on the lighter side?
Actually Silverfuck is pretty good, too.
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Not sure about now but when they started I seem to recall Mogwai claimed they had no influences at all. I didn’t realise this was a deliberate joke.
At the time I’d never heard of Slint, though 
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I don’t think people on this forum particularly hate Smashing Pumpkins. They are (apparently) not as loved as a band like Radiohead and maybe a little more divisive.
I don’t think @TAFH33 or @ttf are the butt of a joke particularly. I mean a lot of us have been characterised by a particular thing we do. I believe I often seem to see references to rhyming or Spar 
What I do think we take issue with is the notion that there was ever some kind of conspiracy against the band, that they were somehow cheated out of greater success. They were massively successful. Yeah maybe not Radiohead levels but my gawd…
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I guess I don’t know who you mean by their contemporaries who are now getting retrospective critical praise.
Equally I’d say you cannot ignore how Corgan has made himself unlikeable in the last 10 years that maybe these contemporaries haven’t?
I don’t think critical reappraisal happens in a vacuum. We don’t view The Smiths in the same way now and they were always very big in the scene and Morrissey’s spent a long time dragging it down.
Wait Nirvana we’re always massive though. No one’s retrospectively said, “Oh yeah, we didn’t clock what a genius Cobain was”. They’ve been downgraded if anything (judging off this site).
Not sure on Pearl Jam. They seem as much in the same area as Pumpkins to me: very successful but not ‘cool’. Possibly in part for a similar reason, the very distinct vocal style that grates for a lot of people. PJ also distanced themselves and stayed that way I thought, just didn’t get into spats with the media?
Soundgarden never seemed as big as Pumpkins and I’m not really sure about them. I don’t feel like they’ve elevated hugely but Cornell seemed to be a genuinely very charismatic man who was very loved even if his music wasn’t your thing. Sadly the death of a front person will always jolt things so it’s a bit more positive.
Again I’m not trying to be snarky but can you be specific?