Billy Corgan's Naked Shapeshifter


just hate that sound (I’m watching Wrestlemania so not now)


Oh his current politics are absolutely those of a prick (as recently as 2008, he was not that way whatsoever) and I do not like who he has become. He sounds like every overly self-confident, intentionally edgy “Well Actually” / “Both sides are the same” caricature on reddit.

Relative to the heat he’s taken for everything else, I don’t think his current politics are getting enough crap. He’s taken much more crap for having the audacity to want the songs he wrote to be played correctly and to write albums that weren’t just watered down versions of prior commercially successful ones. Those two things were the pillars of the “Crazy Billy Corgan / Billy Corgan is an asshole” narrative, whereas the Infowars thing to most people is just a recent cherry on top.


Getting back to the original topics of SP vs. Nirvana and hot takes - “Pennies” is 100x the song “About a Girl” is and should be recognized as such.


I mean basically the ‘what if no Beatles’ thing is really tired. There are so many bands out there. There were loads of other bands around when the Beatles were around.

If if you’re down the @ttf route of not liking them (which is absolutely fine btw) they innovated while producing that music and it made huge differences to how things were recorded and how things ended up sounding too.

It’s fine to love a band and know they’re amazing. But at a certain point, if you’re trying to paint a given band as actually Beatles BIG then you need to look at how popular they were outside of ‘muso ciricles’ how big a wave they made with people who don’t give a shit about the range of sounds or how complex a solo was. Because you are now literally talking about public opinion as a mass.

And at that point I’m afraid the Pumpkins were a heavily promoted stadium band who never quite reached that sort of universal acclaim. You’re seeing it here in this thread. Lots of people who find Corgan’s voice annoying and a turn off, etc. They had a sound that was never destined to get that big. True of pretty much every band, though so…


That’s a really nice song. I dunno about comparing it to About a Girl but there you go.

Incidentally, that Pistachio Medley that follows (just reading about it on Wikipedia) is a complete headfuck and i think I lasted three snippets before it did me in.

Did you like that one straight off or did it take some getting used to?


Whatta thread. People will inevitably have lost track of what’s what by now, but I’m happy to offer a rundown of what’s what.

People who say SP > Nirvana are the same kind of people who say The Clash > Sex Pistols: confused people

Incesticide is easily Nirvana’s best album

Siamese Dream > MCATIS

Vitalogy is the best Pearl Jam album

The Breeders > Pixies

Sebadoh > Dinosaur Jr

L7 > Mudhoney & Soundgarden put together

Rubber Soul is the best Beatles album

The Beatles are the third best band from Liverpool, after Clinic then Ladytron

Raditude is the best Weezer album

The Bee Gees > The Beach Boys

Grunge is definitely a thing because EMF’s second album, Stigma, released in 1992, is a lost grunge classic that you need to hear.

The KLF > Radiohead

The Orb > Pink Floyd

The Jon Spencer Blues Explosion are the band Nirvana would have been if The Beatles never existed.


It took some getting used to. I heard it right when it came out without knowing anything about it, so all I saw was “23 minute Smashing Pumpkins song” and got very excited. It took a bit to adjust my expectations to reality after discovering what it actually was, but I’m glad I was patient because I ended up loving it and still have the whole thing memorized.

It’s kind of the gift that keeps on giving because over the years full length versions of its components have been coming out or surfacing in long versions of Silverfuck. The whole thing is kind of fascinating to me, it’s like a cryptic map to an unreleased version of Mellon Collie.

Here’s a breakdown of the segments. I think pretty much everyone at the very least will love “The Groover”, and I’ve always loved “Depresso” since it sounds like a 1979 / We Only Come Out at Night hybrid.


I’m torn between it and No Code. I think Betterman kind of hurts it, it doesn’t quite fit musically with the pure anger and pure sadness of the rest of the album.


imagine listening to the sex pistols


always enjoy how many people pretend to believe this.

although this is actually correct


It’s not that The Beatles is music for adults - it’s music for people of all ages. It’s just that nothing typifies the kind of nonsense grandstanding opinions that adolescents come out with better than “the Beatles were shit”

Would totally agree with you on the second half. Despite the despicable nonsense Corgan has indulged since 1997, the lyrics in Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie are often very poignant explorations of what seems to have been a very serious depression, and should be treated as such. That they’re treated now by most as the equivalent of a spoiled brat wailing about cleaning his/her room, whilst Cobain’s lyrics are endless pored over,* is a pretty interesting indication of how society and the media treat people with non-fatal depression - you’re a faker and a figure worthy of ridicule.

*this is by no means to say that Cobain wasn’t also a terrible case, more that Corgan’s depression shouldn’t be viewed as less valid simply because he lived


Yeah I agree. I probably read more into what you wrote since I’m constantly seeing people say things like, “I used to like the Pumpkins but then I moved onto more mature music” and it drives me absolutely insane.

Agree 100% on the 2nd paragraph too (well, 90%, I would never call Adore or Machina nonsense or anything less than masterpieces). That’s a really good insight. It’s an idea that’s very overlooked by most people, and also probably something a lot of us on here have to deal with from people in our lives too. Now that I think about it, his depression is very rarely acknowledged or taken seriously by the media, and he’s treated more like a mopey or whiny cartoon character than an actual person struggling with it.


I mean you are aeguing a narrative youve made up in your head


Even as a child of almost 18 i knew Machina wad merely almost something pretty good. It’s great bits dressed in beige.


Early Moody Blues lyrics needed more work.

Things you have been slow to realise

Hi there! Would prefer to listen to Breeders over Pixies any day of the week these days. I think I burned out on Pixies and Breeders still have replay value for me.


I’ve always thought it was a bit weird how people often think it’s ok to label Corgan as an narcissistic egomaniac etc (not in this thread but in general), I mean he obviously is a little, but he has been very open about his childhood, narcissistic defence mechanisms are a response to abuse which lines up, I guess it is kind of unfortunate when someone develops those psychological defences and they also happen to be very talented, must make self awareness difficult to obtain.

As for hating on the Beatles being childish, this whole thread is childish but it seems like the Beatles are the sacred cow that it’s not ok to criticise. For me it’s quite simple I like the pumpkins a lot I don’t like the Beatles so have no problem saying the former are better, but seems like everyone has to respect them for their importance and acknowledge they were objectively good, just seems very mojo magazine ‘official cannon of music’ to me, I would like them if they had songs I like but they dont


Kurt Cobain’s a good guy but nirvana aren’t really a good band.


There’s been some things said in here. Things that shouldn’t have been said, things I didn’t want to hear. But this is the only one that I had to go back and read three times to make sure I read it properly. In the interests of everyone else, however, I’m going to go and listen to it and will report back.

Of course not, if wza thinks he can trick me into listening to EMF in 2018, he’s got another think coming.


Just saying: I’ve read all or most of this thread; I’ve seen dozens of posts criticising the Beatles or saying they don’t like them (which is fine); I’ve seen several saying they like the Beatles; but I don’t think I’ve seen a single post that set them up as gods or suggested they were beyond criticism. “Everybody says they were the best band ever…” except I don’t see anyone here saying that at all. Who are these people you are railing against who are setting up the Beatles as “sacred cows”?