Brexit Thread IV - Negotiations begin (and we're all screwed)


“no one has good answers”

imagine being a grown up and writing that


Roy Walker’s first stab at a catchphrase needed work.


This reply made me lol



the question bloomberg poses there is more to do with wages though, iirc. i don’t get how you could ask that since the answer has been given time and again since roughly the dawn of capitalism.


that’s great


well, that’s my point - that the standard mechanisms and metrics have been replaced by the artificial framework of neoliberal ideology
wherein the overlords say (both actually and increasingly structurally)
‘we’ve made this fantastic win (low unemployment) so if the economy isn’t moving forward & there’s no money in your pocket, it’s your own fault’ crack of whip ‘Oh, you’re working as hard as you can are you? you’re exhausted from the back-breaking labour & stress of daily life are you? Well do you know what…it’s the bloody foreigners and the cripples that aren’t pulling their weight, they’re the ones making it hard for you’

which is where Hammond’s comments come; his lashing out in order to paper over his failure to handle the economy (yes, of course it’s his job to set the conditions for output growth, thus productivity - one of which conditions is creating meaningful employment rather than fraudulently accounting low-unemployment) is not just some brash excuse, it’s actually the ideological gospel of 1%er neo-liberalism which is increasingly structurally implemented

and once full brexit is in and the state apparatus of the NHS, education etc is dismantled/sold off & the markets are deregulated it will be fait accompli


i would say everything in the paragraph following this are standard moves of the capitalist class though, i’m not sure how new any of it is.


Yes this is basically what we both said. And that’s all there is to it. It seems weird that he would bring it up though, it’s not like everyone’s hanging on his every word at the moment.


Re: their readership - You’ve seen the ‘Irish have lost’ woman in that video right?


Reckon they’re killing their own cats, so to speak - or at least not covering things that would be damaging in the normal run of things.

Wouldn’t be surprised if the queen announced she was enlisting to fight in Afghanistan tbqh.


to an extent, yes

but even standard evil capitalism recognises that maintaining a healthy & skilled/educated workforce operating within a carrot & stick social contract is a key aspect of productivity and that good governance keeps the whole thing from toppling over/blowing up and that ‘acts of God’ can intervene to bring flood, famine, disease etc

in the neoliberal model the areas of health, education & social stability are not viewed as input drivers toward a good economy but rather as markets to be exploited directly, that protections (regulations, state ownership/managment etc) are obstacles to the exploitation of these commodities and that it is the 1%ers themselves that should be allowed to intervene and ‘free up’ this capital as the gods of wealth creation, that no area or sector is out of bounds for exploitation and that anything & everything should be considered only within the frame of the ‘bottom line’

of course, this is an extreme simplification and neoliberalism is a direct descendant of a certain kind of capitalism which is probably more correctly termed econo-fascism or something, actual fascism masquerading as fiscal policy rather than religious or social doctrine (and inseparable from the structural biases that have brought us here and built the now).
A Tory hard-brexit will be the neo-liberalists’ fait accompli across the UK-US axis and fuck knows what happens in 30 years time or so when productivity will be entirely based on algorithms, AI & robots serving the monied classes while the non-citizens are traded for offal or something. The neoliberals (or their willing bidders) are all there on the benches closing in on the kill.

And then I look across at Corbyn’s lot & I try to hope & believe that there are still public servants there and I know there are people who believe in the many & not the few but I cannot help thinking that it’s the ultimate in political naivety to think that the Tories are going to create the structure for total de-regulation of the UK and then let Labour waltz in and quickly build a socialist utopia for the workers where Amazon where about to build drone-policed megacities …or Wish Fulfillment Municipalities with St Bezos Robohospitals or whatever they’re going to brand them as


in short, I think neoliberalism is much closer to a hi tech Baronial feudalist cartel than it is to agrarian or merchant market capitalism though it is born from such


well some evil capitalists believe this but only in terms of how it will aid them extracting more value from their workforce, and i doubt many give much of a shit about healthcare considering there’s always someone waiting to fill a role.

but but this is why any good socialist would not think this - it’s called a class struggle for a reason, nobody should go in expecting it to be easy, or that it will happen overnight. the theory was always that it will reach a crisis point where circumstances become so intolerable that the wealthy have their assets seized by force and redistributed to the general population.

we have to make a couple of arguments to people. one is that if monied interests can use their influence to terrify people into voting against their own interests in order to preserve private capital then we by definition don’t live in a democracy and we need to remove these people from their positions of influence, as well as strengthen unions and bargaining power short-term. the other is that we do have the resources to take care of everybody despite what the tories and businesses say, and you can either have a society with millionaires and people making 150k a year working in marketing and PR or you can have a society without poverty and inequality, but you can’t have both. winning that argument through the results of good policy is one way to start, but it’s a long, long process, which is why i think it’s imperative that if a labour government gets into power they do everything possible to prevent the tories ever regaining control of government. boundary changes, gerrymandering, whatever it takes.

we are totally off the subject of brexit :grinning:


brexited from the brexit thread


I think the opposite - all of this is central to the subject of Brexit and at the core of what might come after

I don’t share your optimism re:Corbyn though I’m afraid - an isolated UK with a fucked economy & pitchforks out for anyone not waving the right flag is not ripe ground for a raft of progressive policy (not to mention the brain-drain to the EU that will occur because of it.

The absolute best I can hope for is that May/Tories faceplant so badly on Brexit that there is an early election, Corbyn comes to power on the promise of a 2nd ref on the final deal and the 2nd ref delivers a ‘let’s just revoke Article 50 & stay in the EU’ outcome. Then a full renationalisation & infrastructure investment programme in health, education, elderly care & transport

…and then I woke up


well tbf i was predicating all that on either a softest-of-soft brexit or the whole thing collapsing entirely. but i think at some point we’d need to be outside the EU if you want a socialist, egalitarian society (as @Ruffers said previously). there are ways to do that which are slow, cordial, well planned, and don’t involve pissing off an entire continent with colonial and fash rhetoric. what’s happening atm is just fucking psychopathic.


you see, this is the point at which I STRONGLY disagree …I think just as you outline above that the class struggle has to come to a calamitous point for the ruling classes to be defeated then I think the same applies to Nationalism - that the far right crisis across Europe is the last stand of Nationalism and must be defeated by a united Europe. The UK Brexiting would be a victory for Nationalism (in the short-term at least, in the medium to long term it may not been seen as such but by then it might be too late)
…on the other hand, if I were French or German or Polish or Spanish etc. I might relish the complete collapse of the UK as an example to the rest of the world of the perils of providing succor to Nationalism


I just think a broken Britain is always destined to be rebuilt in a more & more degraded & degrading version of itself clinging onto the Jingoism of colonial Empire propaganda


but we’ll always have the music of the rolling stones


Sorry m7, that music was tax exiled to Jersey decades ago


Actually, let’s not put the public in charge of anything