Brexit Thread V - Only the Best Trade Deals


#581

I agree to an extent, I think my only concern is that it’s key to present people with an alternative because I do wonder whether there’s a real risk of creating a sense of disenchantment with mainstream politics and usher in the right-wing populists which you’re already seeing across the rest of Europe.


#582

Sure, it will damage the standing of whichever political party/political group takes the initiative but that’s politicians not people


#583

I think col means that the way we’re going they’ll eventually be damaged either way


#584

I think the opposite of your concern here, I think regressive Nationalism needs to be crushed and following through with Brexit would only pander to it and make it several shades worse in both the UK & abroad


#585

This I agree with hugely. It’s already far more an advanced cause than it should be


#586

FWIW (and you will probably disagree) I don’t think this country can afford not to let many of the people who voted for Brexit to feel like they’re being ignored any longer, much less stick two fingers up to them in the process.

Yes, they voted for something that’s going to harm everyone and yes, we need to find a decent way to stop Brexit, but my own opinion is that taking the approach of just saying “actually… nah” will lead to the rise of a right wing party (UKIP or otherwise) that has serious influence inside Westminster as opposed to outside alone and a potential level of disquiet that will see us thinking that Britain First rallies were pretty quaint events; if Westminster explicitly say they don’t give a fuck about the public, then why should the disaffected public give a fuck about law and order any longer?

I still say things need to get worse before anything realistic can be done to make them better again - yes, it’s an awful thing for me to say, but the risks of how bad I can see things getting if Brexit is just stopped while negotiations are still going on outweigh that by a long way for me.


#587

^deffo this


#588

I do know what people mean when they go on about disenchanting/disenfranchising people who voted brexit but I don’t think making people think that democracy/politics is a one off vote where you choose a ‘winner’ like it’s reality tv and that is that is a solution. I’ve literally seem comments like ‘we’ve had democracy in June 2016’. Democracy is not will of the people populism it’s a never ending discussion and that is what people need to learn and that would hopefully engage them (if they want to be engaged).

Also I think brexit and the fight to remain has mobilised and engaged many people who were previously not that interested in politics.


#589

At the risk of sounding massively pretentious, I kind of see Brexit within the Hegelian framework with nationalism standing at one part of the framework (antithesis) and globalism (thesis) at the other and something akin to internationalism being the eventual outcome. But to reach that eventual outcome it needs to be presented as a legitimate alternative rather than just a continuation of what came before.


#590

I think the problem is that of course we have a government that doesn’t care about fixing those problems for those people.

If we had a government that did them it would be possible to stop brexit and let these people know that they’d been heard and the problems will be dealt with. That’s a bit wishful thinking at the moment though.

And of course all brexit voters and poor zero hour contactors in deprived areas. There’s loads of middle class tory/mail reading types that voted for it as well.


#591

Certainly but I think we’re seeing the fightback everywhere both through labours electoral successes and the rebellion of May’s backbenchers.

In a way I’m glad it’s taking so long because I’m seeing more and more people confronted with their decisions and learning more about the EU and what it actually does.


#592

I’ve no idea what you’re

Oh.


#593

Agreed, and this part of what’s led me to thinking the way I do.

Ah, for sure, and as far as I’m concerned, fuck that demographic - their opinions will likely never change. I’m more concerned about the demographic of previous non-voters who turned out because they were enthused by the opportunity to voice their discontent with the way things are; they’re effectively the low hanging fruit that I think could be convinced there’s a third way once they’re shown emperical evidence of what Brexit looks like and how harmful it’s going to be.


#594

i still largely believe that Brexit was a vote against the capital as much as, or perhaps more than, the EU. And so the playing field being not so much levelled as set on fire still counts as a desirable/acceptable result for those who have watched London hoover up the talent, the international respect, the international visitors and the money.

It’s a ginormous fuck you to london in a lot of ways and honestly it’s hard to blame some areas for feeling that way.


#595

The capital AND the political/Westminster class really I think.

Pretty ironic that the EU has done more to try and level the playing field across the country than anything Westminster have done in the last couple of decade.


#596

agreed. and that itself was wrought by westminster downplaying the benefits of the EU from the beginning to make the ‘little’ people believe that the successes in funding the country were british alone etc. hence the still occurring shock from those who still can’t quite believe that funding is no longer going to be coming their way


#597

Farage had done very well tapping into this demographic, which is why him considering a second referendum may end up being significant.


#598

Continuing the thoughts about the disenfranchised being ignored leading to the rise of the far right - brexit is going to do that anyway and even quicker. Things get worse, the blame is put on the EU ‘punishing’ us, immigration numbers don’t drop but are instead from non-EU/ countries to replace the workforce which increases racism towards them and far right sentiment etc.


#599

This is possible however the existing nature of the British immigration policies which, are in most cases far stricter than any country that uses a point based system, surely means that the demand caused by a potential absence of people from Europe is unlikely to be met by people from abroad?


#600

Guys we got control of our waters

Oh wait