#130

Not sure that’s quite true buddy. Y’know what with us voting for MEPs, voting in the governments that represent us in the european council and a bunch of other places, and who get a vote - as members of the council - to nominate the President of the Commission. Pooling sovereignty is not even close to scrapping sovereignty.

Idk these arguments have been falsified MANY times before so dunno why I responded but seriously, if you have any sort of inquisitive mind you shouldn’t be coming out with nonsense like that.

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#131

I think my sympathy levels for anyone like that who voted for Brexit are precisely zero at this point.

#132

I wouldn’t make an equivalence between (genuine) democratic socialism and corporatist conservative-fascism. Any similarities are superficial.

#133

Both believe in structured markets. I don’t think that’s a superficial difference.

#134

Sure, but Theo isn’t wrong, even if the protest vote was based on ignorance, there was a clear reason argued for it at the time.

#135

But where does the power reside? Of course socialism requires some centralised planning, but it would necessarily be restricted by workers’ democratic control of capital (and other factors). Not so the other way around.

#136

how did i miss this?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-backs-turkeys-eu-bid-after-vote-leave-warned-of-its-impending-membership_uk_57ea6bb0e4b00e5804ef4f29?

also did anyone see the guy on Question Time recently who compared Brexit to countries gaining independence from the Soviet Union? the English are such privileged motherfuckers.

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#137

Not so the other way around.

That’s exactly my point. What I’m saying is that by rejecting the liberal paradigm, in terms of Brexit and British politics more broadly, whilst the stated goals are positive we are also opening ourselves up to regressive political and social attitudes. I think there are significant moral and structural failings in how liberalism has been implemented but I think it’s functional opposition to the attitudes that underpin Brexit was a valuable concept, and one that we should be wary of discarding.

#138

One good thing is the wealthy won’t be getting anymore welfare in the form of land subsidies and by extension further destroying our already teetering wild areas.

The downside is most of these wealthy cunts vote for and fund the Tories so the subaidies will probably continue on the side, dressed up as aid to impoverished farmers or something. Ian Duncan Smith alone gets about 150000 per year for owning treeless land.

#139

Sure, which is why people like Varoufakis believe that the task of socialists is currently to save capitalism from eating itself. But I think the boat’s sailed, particularly as the effects of climate change intensify exponentially every year now (we’re gonna die lol)

#140

Yeah, you’re right on that score. We’re gambling so hard on technological deus ex machina to solve climate change, acidification of the oceans, soil degradation, and antibiotic resistance. Without that all of this could well be slightly depressing ‘deck chair’ politics.

At least we got our country back before we died, eh?

#141

Inquisitive mind? Mate I did about 3 months solid research. I know (knew) everything to know. I read up pro and anti eu material. I looked at laws. I watched documentaries. Maybe read that essay I did before you brand me not inquisitive.

The fact is I was pro EU until I looked into it and the more I did the more it was obvious it was an insane, undemocratic costly nightmare with no regard for the poor, for accountability, for frugalness, for democracy. It’s a business club. That’s why it was made. It’s a neo liberal institution not replicated anywhere else in the world.

If you think because there’s MEPs it’s democratic is like saying Russia is democratic because it has elections.

The law makers, the executive branch we don’t elect and they make the laws. It’s like not electing me government here. The MEP has vastly less power than an MP. This goes much further but obviously you can’t be arsed to look into amit and you’re looking for confirmation bias.

Look at Germany lobbying the IMF not to reduce Greece. Look at the poor and the needy in that country, or Spain. Read the links at the beginning of my essay and see the corruption, the cost, the subsidies, the business before people mantra.

Why I’m bothering to write this I dunno. I haven’t read or heard a single remainer be able to provide a convincing argument. And I’ve read about this topic for months. Argued with all of my mates. Looked to see if I’m crazy to be siding with UKIP or Tories. But no, the EU is a right wing heap of poor bashing undemocratic shit and the fact we’re out of it will be the greatest thing Britain does in the 21st century.

#142

you forgot to celebrate the fact that it’s legitimised the racism and xenophobia of the right. hooray!

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#143

Isn’t the counter argument that the alternative is worse and we’re about to demonstrate that by deliverying a neo-conservative clusterfuck that will match the EU’s worst corporatist excesses.

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#144

as someone mentioned succinctly on the old board, ‘Lexit’ only makes any sense if you have a left wing government to deliver it.

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#145

Same with those who complain that May is an unelected PM

#146

No it’s not. Russia effectively rigs its’ elections. That’s 100% different.

They’re nominated by people we have elected.

A lot of countries separate their executive and legislative branches, it’s not disenfranchising to do so. MEPs have the power to reject and amend laws, as well as set out the position of the European Parliament on various matters (which the executive will need to take into consideration before presenting bills to the Parliament), so they are far from without power.

I don’t support the capitalist practices of the EU. That’s why I’m a socialist. Leaving the EU won’t do any good in the pursuit of socialist realities, that should be obvious if you’ve paid any attention to the Tories recently.

EDIT: of course the EU lacks democracy. But there’s no such thing as the ideal liberal democracy, since it’s riven with contradictions. All we can do is compare it to other liberal democratic institutions and organisations, to which it compares relatively favourably (particularly against the UK parliament, which probably won’t even have a say on Brexit lolololoolololol).

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#147

Is this about the EU Commission? We don’t elect every EU Commissioner because they’re all representatives from their specific country who are appointed in consultation with the EU president. Interestingly enough the last UK EU commissioner was actually a eurosceptic but still believed we should have remained.

#148

I’m tired and words are losing their meaning. Are you saying liberal capitalism is a good thing?

#149

Alternative to remaining?