Corbyn 3.0

Not saying anything about this particular instance, but we should be able to simultaneously hold in our minds the two ideas that 1) people who claim to be left wing are sometimes anti-Semitic and 2) a lot of people are invested in pushing a narrative of left wing anti-Semitism irrespective of the facts

You don’t think the anti-Corbynites haven’t been intently chasing a particular line for a while now, regardless of its basis in reality? I’m not even saying there isn’t anti-semitism in the Labour party - it’s a problem rooted in the fabric of our society. I just think it’s very telling that there has been such a focus on it ever since Corbyn came to power, and that it walks hand-in-hand with the suggestion that it’s impossible to criticise or boycott Israel without being anti-semitic.

Certainly. The Labour Party has to be much better than wider society on stuff like this if it has to have any claim to be the party of progressive social change. I was disappointed in how slow Corbyn was in dealing with Livingstone in particular, and really hope he tightens up on stuff like that in future (the almost instant dismissal of Champion suggests he’s taken that on board at least). I just think that a lot of the criticisms from the centre come from a place of bad faith, and are less interested in confronting racism and more in fostering division and miring the party down in internal disputes however they can.

i think it’s a valid point to make, looking at the tweet above, that a lot of conservative commentators equate anti-israeli government/ military with anti-semitism, and they do it in a very deliberate way, to try and discredit people and arguments that they dont like. but yeah, it is a separate point from the fact that there has been some really worrying language and behaviour on the left recently which really needs rooting out and stopping, cause it has no place.

You chose to make that point, as DB has pointed out, against a Jewish journalist. A Jewish journalist who has problems with Corbyn’s leadership re: antisemitism. You wouldn’t do that for any other writer directly affected by a concern of homophobia, transphobia, Islamophobia… so why have you done it here? You yourself don’t deny a problem exists so…

We need to be VERY careful about how we discuss these matters. Seems that with antisemitism that care doesn’t really apply. And I’m not using it as a stick to beat Corbyn with either.

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Perfectly capable of doing that but thanks for the reminder all the same :+1:t2:

I didn’t know he was Jewish tbf. I also feel it’s worth pointing out he’s conveniently left out the fact the Holocaust remarks were made by a female Israeli speaker in order to push his white male argument. But alright fair enough, I’m stepping all the way back from this now.

are you talking about freedland? as far as i can tell his criticisms of crobyn dont seem to be because of his stance on israel. why would you think i was dismissing him? point i was trying to make is that lots of people use lines like “corbyn misses friends of israel reception” to hint at “corbyn is an antisemite” when they know that it isn’t the case. seems to be an attempt to paint a narrative where the corbyn wing of labour encourages or turns a blind eye to the antisemitism on the left instead of addressing it, which is massively disingenuous. when this happens, it seems to be more like a deliberate attempt to spread division than a genuine attempt to address the real problems and help those targeted.

I was conflating them with someone else, sorry. As my Jonathan Friedman thing up there attests to I’m very hung over today.

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AS IF THIS IS MY MOST LIKED COMMENT EVER FFS. I am wasted on you prudish communists.

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It seems quoting Corbyn is a good route for the many likes, not the few

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I thought main issue was the replies of “good”/“absolute boy”…proposing the idea that corbyn deliberately didn’t attend and supporting that?

This is a bit of a hottake, but surely if you’re made aware of anti-semitism, you either refute it or condemn it completely…not question the motives of the accusation

I think it’s justified to do both.

In the case of refuting the accusation yes…but otherwise?

It’s still necessary and rigorous to highlight the true motivations behind people making the accusations, yes.

Yeah okay…if done genuinely. Immediately saying accusations of Labour anti-semitism are created to discredit Corbyn and spread division don’t fall into that category.

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The arguments have been had numerous times before already, not least in this thread.

I think it’s not unreasonable to argue, even assume, that people accusing Corbyn himself of antisemitism in the way highlighted by ltlht are anti-Corbyn rather than anti-anti-semitism, if that makes sense.

I’m sure we are going over old ground (though it’s only been touched upon briefly ITT), and since I’m just looking for clarity myself you may not want to continue this debate.

However…I’m going to deduce from what you’ve said that not all of his accusers are just anti-Corbyn, but a proportion are. Knowing true motivations are difficult though…if it just stopped at “there could be a number of motivators for these accusations” that’d be fine…but then there are instances of de-legitimising claims of discrimination. All those twitter comments of “absolute boy” for not attending the friends of israel meet (for whatever reason that was) is an example of this.

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yeah, youre definitely right, the only reason i brought this up here is because this thread is specifically about corbyn; he hasn’t tackled the antisemitism problem as well as he should have, but it’s wrong of his detractors to try and use the israel point to suggest either that he is antisemitic, or that the problem is a new one peculiar only to his supporters. its been a problem thats been unaddressed for a long time in certain parts of the left, a lot longer than he’s been a prominent figure. so when people use his israel stance as a stick to beat him with by suggesting it’s linked to the racists and antisemites, it comes across as a little disingenuous.

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Pop for Labour in the latest polls but most significant is JC passing May for best PM 32/30. First time I’ve seen him ahead. Just need economic competence and Labour will have a public position to really build on.