#85

But then there are the immediately following sentences

Is she justified in criticising the comedian in her very privileged position as a Guardian journalist, in a piece with a misleading headline and a shamelessly sensationalist opening line? In the days since I first read the piece, I cannot think of any justification for it, when the comedian’s intentions were so clear cut.

There is nothing in Sinha’s piece that suggests he thinks Kitson should not have used the word.

The use of the word “reclaim” is an issue with that piece too. It appears three times, once in the headline (which would have been written by someone else), once where she asks the question “Does Kitson really think he can reclaim the power of a word he has never suffered the power of?” to which the obvious answer would be “I don’t know. Is there anything to suggest he was?” and the third time where she expresses her own right to reclaim the word as a slur, which I would consider uncontroversial. So even though reclamation has quite high prominence in the article, there’s not much evidence to suggest that was a part of what Kitson was expressing. In fact there’s no evidence presented in the article to that effect.

The big issue of course is not that, but Sinha is correct to highlight that the headline and first line are sensationalist.

4 Likes
#86

I know, I’ve not said there was. I’m saying both sides of the argument seem perfectly valid, as Sinha himself notes in the quote I gave (regardless of what he thinks of the specific piece he was arguing with, which was much less sensationalist than the headline and didn’t, I think, use the word ‘reclaim’ in the way Sinha was perhaps implying). With this in mind…

Whether it’s properly articulated or not, I think most who think Kitson shouldn’t have said it wouldn’t necessarily say they agree with Iqbal here, but argue that ‘being respectful’ is why he ought to play it safe. As she says, it’s a predominantly white audience that he has, which surely makes the feelings of a portion of the non-white/Asian members of it even more important to listen to.I guess the point is that as white people our intention should not be to decide who is right or wrong about this but rather be respectful of all opinions coming from PoC/the Asian community/whatever term you want to use. That in itself kinda precludes him from using the term (or, more specifically, to stop using it).

No one would have criticised the things you said, hopefully, just encouraged you to let others speak for themselves (which they and you have done in this thread). I know telling people not to say anything sounds hypocritical from me but what I’m not doing (and I hope comes across) is I’m not saying anything about the actual moral substance of the debate (is he right/wrong etc), but rather what he, as a white man, should do in response to the very existence of this debate. I also think I probably can’t say he never should have said it, since him saying it precludes the moral debate and that’s a whole weird metaphysical conundrum innit.

#87

It just doesn’t preclude that. At least two “members” of the “community” in question have, in terms, said that the use of the term was valid, even necessary.

#88

But others have said his use of the word is disrespectful or words to that effect. Should they be ignored because others disagree with them?

#89

Well Sinha would say yes

But it is not the job of a comedian to try and second guess the life experience of every member of the audience.

and importantly he says it from the standpoint of a standup comedian rather than as a person of Asian descent. Ultimately the reason for all this difficulty is that art is supposed to provoke and challenge, and the point where a line has been crossed is ambiguous and should be fiercely debated.

#90

i guess it’s got people talking, so it’s been of some benefit in that regard.

#91

tbh his status as a stand up comedian damns him more than anything else, they’re mostly full of it. Wouldn’t wanna judge him by the friends he keeps though…

idk, not sure about that. I mean, provoke & challenge oppressive power structures, sure. But in terms of challenging our preconceptions etc.; what if our preconceptions are actually good? Most of my favourite/most cherished art just pushes me further on a journey I was already on if you know what I mean. And I’m obviously a really good guy…

#92

I think playing it safe is an option, but as I mentioned up thread it is not without a cost, peoples desire to not be offended in conflict with others wanting culture to be able to talk about issues frankly, I would totally understand if some people prefer to prioritise the former, but don’t think it is wrong not to or should be the default

1 Like
#93

OK, then I think we now have fundamental differences, so it’s time for me to bow out here, go and make a cake and watch some jocks riding in circles around Paris. Have a nice evening. :smiley:

1 Like
#95

I stand by thinking it was not very clear. It is in a thread about Kitson’s actions, the bit in question follows your assertion that it shouldn’t be about Kitson’s intentions, and is followed by criticism of Kitson for his friend responding and not him. Think most people would infer that the bit in the middle where you explain why it is not about intentions and why people with good intentions are to blame when they get it wrong is in reference to this Kitson situation and not just in the abstract.

3 Likes
#96

Kind of thing regardless of my misunderstanding here that my point in response to it still stands, that how do people know when someone gets it wrong, who has the authority to decide

#97

middle class white people, but not other middle class white people

3 Likes
#100

Going to see this on Wednesday, have pre-warned my gf (who is Asian) who is coming with me as it could well be very unpleasant for her to have to hear that word regardless of context.

I’m a firm believer in the ability of comedy to shine a light on racism and use the power of laughter to undermine despicable views of all types. I really don’t think that an actual offensive term needs to be used for the same point to be made though and the fact of the matter is that the demographic make-up of the audience for these types of things being predominantly white probably gives a very false impression to performers about the acceptability of using words like this.

3 Likes
#101

Because when someone is talking about a specific instance of something, it is not uncommon to reference the underlying principle that that instance is being compared against

#102

Fully prepared to be shown wrong here but am genuinely interested to know whether my comprehension is off.

poll:

If someone says:

“Pretty tired of everything like this being reduced to whether it can be labelled as racist, sexist etc. And I really don’t think how we interrogate the words of Daniel kitson should just be about either intention or consequence. Someone can be really well-meaning and intend to critique or satirise but be so limited by their own arrogance and position of relative ignorance and unwillingness to question their own assumptions that they are still blameworthy when they get it wrong. Really don’t think intention is that important if you’re too lazy or complacent to deconstruct why you might think certain ways or why lots of more experienced people might think otherwise.
I think it would be good if kitson himself responded rather than getting a pal to do it.”

Would you assume they thought kitson ‘got it wrong’

  • Yes
  • No

0 voters

Show results
#103

fwiw i read it the same as ttf, and i think you’re going in a little hard on ttf considering their comments in this thread and their position relating to it.

16 Likes
#106

Same

#109

I’m definitely not saying you were saying something else!! And yes, you’re right, but it’s not totally unreasonable for ttf + others to take you post a different way

1 Like
#111

I don’t think most real life conversation should be held to the same level as a verbal reasoning test. I have also noticed we often disagree and it often comes down to you saying I have misunderstood you, I don’t know what to say it is not deliberate on my part, it doesn’t seem to happen with other people so maybe I just don’t understand your style

#112

What is wrong with making a poll, I am actually really interested as to whether I am on my own here, because I felt my interpretation is reasonable, you think I’m unreasonable I am interested what others think. It could easily go against me