That thread also reminded me of the recent IDLES chat
Not seen that (mainly because I bounced off their music and so don’t pile into discussions on them to make sure people know how much I don’t like them) - link?
No it’s the “hur hur she’s so embarrassing” and questioning her ‘legitimacy’ on here which feels specifically sexist (see also: Florence And The Machine). People lay into Ed Sheeran or even Elbow but no one ever questions their legitimacy in the same way they do for female artists.
I don’t think it’s true that male artists never have their ‘legitimacy’ questioned. I tends to happen to artists that people perceive as being a little over earnest or inauthentic- Idles and Fontaines DC are examples of male acts that get this too.
Where sexism does come in is where female artists are dismissed as ‘over emotional’ and I think this does happen to Florence and possibly to Kate Tempest in a way that it might not to a confessional male artist.
That’s an age old sexist trope isn’t it - women musicians are puppets. Not at all saying DiS is guilty but you don’t have to look much beyond views on Beyonce to see those views are still depressingly prevalent.
I agree with that 100% and lots of female artists are victims of it (see the focus on Bjork’s male collaborators) but I don’t think anyone says it about Kate Tempest (not that I’ve seen)
Yeah, not read any idle chat (excuse the pun!!!) as noted just up from this so clearly it extends beyond female artists.
There’s a whole load of chat about Kate Tempest in that thread about her attending Brit School and people assuming she’s straight-up lying about her upbringing a propos of nothing (beyond her being a woman)
The snark starts about 100 posts in:
The Brit School thing is weird. I used to have an instinctive aversion to it, based probably on a romantic idea of rock and pop music being untaught. Increasingly though it’s become obvious that the Brit School provides some of the few opportunities for people from non-privileged backgrounds to pursue interests in music. Rather that than another bunch of public schoolboys.
I didn’t even know Kate Tempest had been there so it didn’t enter into my thinking. It’s interesting that the stigma seems to be lessening though - Black Midi seem to have got a pass on that score.
4 dudes innit
Precisely this which is overlooked with Kate Tempest. Posts assuming she must have parents with sharp elbows in order for her to have gotten in.
Although to be fair, the connection of Fontaines DC to a similar institution in Ireland did feature heavily in the discussion about their ‘authenticity’.
Fair. I’d never heard of them before this thread so I’m lacking context on what is being questioned about their authenticity. I don’t think that examples of men enduring a similar weird criticism means that there isn’t sexism at play when this more frequently happens to women (which I think is fairly well documented as a phenomenom).
I don’t disagree with the suggestion that women face sexism in the music industry (that would obviously be stupid). I just think that it is a jump from that to an assumption that all criticism of an individual female artist is necessarily predicated on that.
From what I’ve seen (and I admit I haven’t exhaustively read through the various threads you have linked to) the criticism of Kate Tempest seems more founded on questions of ‘authenticity’ than on sexism. Those sort of debates tend to flare up whenever an artist comes from just at the edge of a genre and is perceived as getting more attention than those right at the centre (you see it with metal as well and responses to bands like Deafheaven and Baroness). Genres are very sensitive to ideas of ‘authenticity’. This has happened to Kate Tempest in relation to hip hop.
It’s definitely unfair to her, because it’s not her fault that she gets lots of attention from broadsheet newspapers and outlets like 6Music. It’s also unfair because in fact her music doesn’t really have much to do with hip hop anyway- it can be judged on its own terms without reference to genre expectations.
Personally I find that her music does nothing for me, but that’s not based on any concerns about her ‘authenticity’ or on her sex - I just don’t reckon it’s that good. I don’t feel the need to be ‘snarky’ about her though.
My point is that female artists are much more likely to have their authenticity questioned in the first place. The sexism is implicit.
It’s not a question of authenticity rather than sexism - they’re intertwined
I’ve not done this
Which means you’re making assumptions rather than looking at the evidence.
I’m not saying that people criticising her don’t respect women. I think it does reflect subconscious bias which means a women’s musical authenticity is much more likely to be questioned than a man’s. See Bjork, Kate Tempest, FATM, Beyonce, Kelly Lee Owens, etc
You can dislike her music without being sexist. Questioning her authenticity is likely coming from entrenched sexism. I can’t give hard proof for that as it’s borne out of a complex web of beliefs and prejudices. But there is a pattern.
I don’t think we disagree as much as you think we do, but I’m going to back out of this now because I think we are just going round and round in circles and I don’t come on here to fall out with people.
Point me to anyone questioning the authenticity or the brilliance of Bjork, Beyoncé or Kelly Lee Owens and I’ll show you an idiot though.
Have seen loads of questioning the authenticity of artists like deaf heaven and can’t recall seeing any of Kelly Lee owens.
This is a tricky one because sexism and industry bias are unquestionable but this seems like some dodgy ground all round frankly.
Questioning ‘authenticity’ generally is problematic (you can end up in the ridiculous “i need to find out whether your parents went to university before I know whether I can like your band” situation) but I’m not convinced it’s something that only /mostly affects female artists.
Questioning the authenticity of artists comes from the whole gatekeeper mentality which I suppose comes from the same place as institutional sexism so idk.
In conclusion but you can dislike Kate Tempest without being a misogynist I’m sure.
Not on this board - wasn’t clear sorry. But she’s spoken about the same things as Bjork.
I’ve not suggested otherwise!
And you can have gendered bias in your thinking without being a mysognist.