Had an interesting chat about loyalty with my friend last night


#1

it was a bit heavy and probably too late for such conversations, but there were some interesting findings.

my take is that loyalty is very important and should not be broken, no matter what the person/thing you’re loyal to has done to question said loyalty.

I used an incredibly incendiary example that no matter what heinous crime my friend committed, I’d always be loyal to him. even horrible, horrible stuff like killing a kid, for example. controversial example obviously, but I felt I needed to go the full hog to test his loyalty to me.

thing is - he felt completely different and mentioned that there is a line, that once crossed, that would be it. game over.

debate got way too heavy to be honest and went on into the wee small hours, but I’m glad we had it, because I know if I was to do something truly dreadful, he wouldn’t be there for me.

thoughts on loyalty? should it be an unflinching thing, or like my friend, is there a line that once crossed, there can be no going back?

HEAVY SHIT


#2

Think there’s a line mate for sure.


#3

Oh god what have you done


#4

sorry, but you’re going to have to elaborate on this a little. if you don’t mind…


#5

What would unflinching loyalty entail here? visiting yer man in prison? lying to help them get away with murder?


#6

Well, don’t think I’d be remaining loyal to any of my ATDs if they killed a kid as in your example above tbh.

Think there are some things that are too horrendous to ignore and would drastically alter your perception of the person through all of the good times as well.


#7

yeah, the former. hadn’t even considered the latter. food for thought, man


#9

TBH I don’t think you can know where this line is until you’re in the situation, and it’s all context dependant. Can’t imagine a situation where killing a kid wouldn’t be way, way past the line though obvs


#10

reminds me of gazza going fishing with that guy that was on the run or whatever


#11

what about a family member? a son, or whatever. would you completely wash your hands of them?

not in any way suggesting that you condone their actions here. but would you still offer support to them and perhaps try and get some sort of understanding as to why they carried out such a heinous crime?


#12

#13

i mean there’s an argument that this is how everyone should deal with offenders of this level - understanding rehabilitation is the only way forward.

So while in practice I don’t know if i could be loyal on the terms you’ve highlighted even in the slightest to someone who had, for instance, raped someone, in theory I would hope that someone would be making efforts to understand and rehabilitate that person.

There’s a further argument though that they won’t find redemption or change the way they think from me, so maybe a removal of friendship replaced by therapy and a (utopian) thoughtful prison system is a better way to reset the mind.

Idk. That’s my answer though Silks


#14

solid answer, man.


#15

Immediate family member might be different but, again, hard to say how you’d react without being in that situation, would all be an emotional response rather than something you can really predict or reason


#16

Hitler’s mum was always telling people he was misunderstood and that it was WW1 that was entirely to blame.

To be a little more helpful, I have a little trouble with anything unconditional… just on the basis that nothing remains the same forever. Whether it be a relationship with a partner who has become abusive or one where 2 people retreat into silently seething in frustration, resentment and a lack of empathy… it should be very clear that with relationships (as with dinosaurs, dodos, the Enlightenment, muscle function, full employment, health, et cetera) little is guaranteed or unconditional.


#17

Being loyal means being able to criticise someone when they’ve fucked up. It also means letting someone take the consequences of their actions.


#18

Blind loyalty is weird and dangerous. Your friend was correct.


#19

The recent Louis Theroux doc on Jimmy Savile was instructive on this. There are still people who worked very closely with him and who know what he did, who can’t bring themselves to quite believe it and still support his memory.

I think for me ‘loyalty’ would be supporting the individual with what they were going through rather than a flat out lying to the coppers.


#20

well yes, this is the crux of my argument. imo, you should stick by your loved ones no matter what. not in any way suggesting you should help them evade detection etc.

and anyway, and again imo - there are in many cases reasons why people commit heinous crimes. people aren’t either born evil or are evil to the core. no one would just go out and kill a kid off the cuff, for example. life circumstances and personal trauma can also be the catalyst for people doing stuff ordinary folk would be completely repulsed by.

all IMO


#21

I’m not sure I consider someone an ATD unless they’ve killed a kid tbqh