#6

Well, don’t think I’d be remaining loyal to any of my ATDs if they killed a kid as in your example above tbh.

Think there are some things that are too horrendous to ignore and would drastically alter your perception of the person through all of the good times as well.

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#7

yeah, the former. hadn’t even considered the latter. food for thought, man

#9

TBH I don’t think you can know where this line is until you’re in the situation, and it’s all context dependant. Can’t imagine a situation where killing a kid wouldn’t be way, way past the line though obvs

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#10

reminds me of gazza going fishing with that guy that was on the run or whatever

#11

what about a family member? a son, or whatever. would you completely wash your hands of them?

not in any way suggesting that you condone their actions here. but would you still offer support to them and perhaps try and get some sort of understanding as to why they carried out such a heinous crime?

#12
#14

solid answer, man.

#15

Immediate family member might be different but, again, hard to say how you’d react without being in that situation, would all be an emotional response rather than something you can really predict or reason

#16

Hitler’s mum was always telling people he was misunderstood and that it was WW1 that was entirely to blame.

To be a little more helpful, I have a little trouble with anything unconditional… just on the basis that nothing remains the same forever. Whether it be a relationship with a partner who has become abusive or one where 2 people retreat into silently seething in frustration, resentment and a lack of empathy… it should be very clear that with relationships (as with dinosaurs, dodos, the Enlightenment, muscle function, full employment, health, et cetera) little is guaranteed or unconditional.

#17

Being loyal means being able to criticise someone when they’ve fucked up. It also means letting someone take the consequences of their actions.

#18

Blind loyalty is weird and dangerous. Your friend was correct.

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#19

The recent Louis Theroux doc on Jimmy Savile was instructive on this. There are still people who worked very closely with him and who know what he did, who can’t bring themselves to quite believe it and still support his memory.

I think for me ‘loyalty’ would be supporting the individual with what they were going through rather than a flat out lying to the coppers.

#20

well yes, this is the crux of my argument. imo, you should stick by your loved ones no matter what. not in any way suggesting you should help them evade detection etc.

and anyway, and again imo - there are in many cases reasons why people commit heinous crimes. people aren’t either born evil or are evil to the core. no one would just go out and kill a kid off the cuff, for example. life circumstances and personal trauma can also be the catalyst for people doing stuff ordinary folk would be completely repulsed by.

all IMO

#22

I used to think I’d be loyal to my ATDs no matter what, but recently, it turned out one of them had been cheating on his wife (who I consider a really good friend) with my former housemate. for like over 3 years.

honestly don’t particularly like hanging out with him any more. obviously lost a lot of respect for the dude and our friendship hasn’t really been the same since.

#24

I’VE SAID TOO MUCH.

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#25

Being completely disloyal and just joining the side of whoever is saying what you agree with at that moment- is also weird and dangerous. And it’s how politicians lie their way into power because people disregard all their past history when it suits them.

A fine balance between loyalty, and constant reassessment is the thing to do.

If your behaviour means you are turning on longtime friends due to a temporary lie someone else is telling you- you need to reassess your views on loyalty.

#26

Yeah, that guy sounds like a dick. I would slowly drift away from them like two ice cubes melting in a glass.

#27

I’m loyal to lots of people to wildly varying degrees so don’t think there’s a one size fits all approach- would depend on the situation and our background together (reasons for being loyal in the first place). The idea that loyalty would be unflinching is bizarre through- you wouldn’t be loyal to a person who was trying to kill or hurt you in some way, so there’s always going to be a line, even if the threshold is pretty extreme.

#28

There is an interesting discussion to be had for sure, but it feels like you were slightly misrepresenting unwavering loyalty as pure loyalty. I mean, do you want to be a friend with someone who would still treat you as an ATD after you’ve killed a child? That doesn’t seem like a friendship thing.

It is totally different if you were talking about loyalty to a child. Even if my kid killed someone they’d still be my flesh and blood, the person I raised. I’d still have to be there for them in almost all circumstances because of love and the fact that if I was who would be.

But a friend? There is certainly a line. Where that is is very personal.

#29

Unconditional loyalty simply lets people get away with being dicks and not taking responsibility for their actions, though. I guess i’m pretty cold in that i don’t think about these things too much. Two or three mates/colleagues have mentioned similar things over the years, but something i’ve noticed is that they all have one thing in common, they smoke cannabis and so these/this sort of deep hypothetical questions/neurosis are/is normal to them. I think you’re much less likely to experience loyalty from people if you put too much emphasis on it, like in relationships for example, trust is earned naturally by not questioning it, etc.