have you watched the 30 for 30 @Aggpass mentioned yet?
no not yet, gonna try and watch it over the weekend
it’s pretty good but there are definitely a few darker things they gloss over
I’ve found the entire thing pretty unremittingly grim so far, I’m about an hour in (dunno if this chat should move to the wrestling thread btw guys)
dunno i’m quite enjoying hijaking every thread towards wrestling lately ALTHOUGH in this instance talking about another form of popular culture that almost certainly has inhabited this terrible culture for years
Alright this is also really ego-centric and probably sexist but if it turns out Kurt Cobain or Thom Yorke or Aphex Twin etc have some skeletons in their closet I’ll probably have to think about killing myself because they were hugely important male role models for me growing up, and if life has taught me anything it’s that everything turns to shit.
I don’t think this is the right thread for this…but I’d argue that there is still scope for valuing how people affected you in the past, despite how you see them now, because of what they meant to you at the time. If, for example, Aphex Twin did become discredited, that doesn’t mean you knowingly endorsed that at the time of your adulation. Cut yourself some slack.
You know what’s fucked up though is how blind you are to it all as a guy. Like women everywhere aren’t surprised by any of this shit, no matter what the rep pre-exposure of these men was, but we’re all, “Jeez, this is really grim” etc. I know you can’t say much else but still…makes you question a lot…workmates, friends, etc…this is why this needs to happen, long overdue, to get us as lads thinking about it the way women do. Not saying we’re all insensitive pigs but I reckon just by being men in a patriarchal system we’re sort of instinctively blind to a lot of dodgy shit we should be a lot sharper about.
I mean w/r/t these allegations, it’s surely no coincidence so many of these dudes had reps for being feminists and so forth. Like it makes me realise I can post in the feminist thread all I like but it doesn’t make me an ally if all I’m doing is talking and posting and not really listening* . So I think I’m going to try to listen more and talk less when it comes to this stuff.
*(he says after a series of self-indulgent posts)
As you’ve mentioned further down the thread, a lot of women just aren’t surprised by this stuff anymore because we’ve engaged with so many men who are “good people” and “nice guys” who deep deep down don’t see women as equals. We learn not to trust guys from an early age and try to learn the potential warning signs of creeps or sleazebags, learn defence tactics like telling them we have boyfriends or politely ending exchanges, but a lot of the time the men who grope and shame and belittle us aren’t the archetypal sleazes and are, for want of a better phrase, hiding in plain sight. A guy coming up to me in a bar could just be being “friendly” but how am I to know when so many other guys who have started off friendly have insulted me after I decide I don’t want to have a conversation or dance with them? How am I to know the guy in the bus seat next to me is just curious about what I’m reading when other guys have used situations like that to start dodgy conversations? Or that the guy putting his hands on my hips to move me out of the way isn’t going to accidentally slip them somewhere else when guys have done that in the pub in the past? I’m sad but not shocked at the Jesse Lacey allegations because that whole scene and genre was rife with misogyny (cf. most lyrics in 2000s emo/pop punk).
The best thing that can come out of this whole thing is men taking a look at themselves and their gender and working out where the rot is and listening to women (yes I know men have been affected too and I’m sure some women have abused their power too). It’s a good start that guys are becoming aware of stuff that women have to deal with. I’m going through the same process with regard to race and my white privilege and it’s forcing me to challenge a lot of my beliefs and past behaviours.
Not sure how coherent this is as I’m really low on sleep but I hope it goes some way to giving a female perspective on this.
You also have tickets for Saturday right? Still going? Am a bit in turmoil over here and feeling like a hypocritical fuck for condemning all the other accused but desperately wanting to not believe the JL stuff.
Yeah I’m conflicted too, I’ve been waiting for this for so long and we’ve booked trains and a hotel and everything, but I also don’t want to act like it’s OK. Might have to see how it plays out over the next few days.
As a band they and those around them are so “right on” I just can’t fathom how they’d let this kind of behaviour slide. Kevin Devine retweeted something about “all men need to do better” which was originally posted in response to the Roy Moore stuff but now I can’t help but over analyse it.
Maybe we should all meet up and cry into a pint of emo instead.
Yeah people said that about Real Estate too
Tell me more?
The radio silence from the band/label is not filling me with confidence tbh. I know they’re notoriously private but this has been trending on twitter so it really needs addressing publicly. Having said that the original allegation on Facebook is the only one I’ve actually seen - lots of comments about him being a known creep but no detail. I should really sleep but I think I’m worried I’ll wake up to the gig being cancelled and more stories coming out.
That recent BBC Four documentary about Guns n Roses made just before their reformation basically opens with a load of stuff about their 80s days that just sounds like a lot of very unpleasant treatment of women went down. There’s no sense in the film that anyone making it or talking can see any issues with it too. Grim as.
Not sure about Cobain or Yorke but didn’t Apex have a really bed breakup with his wife? I guess there is scope for something to come out but probably still unlikely.
Main one is Grohl: hasn’t Courtney always claimed he was a creeper of the highest order? The thing is, she’s had so much shit thrown at her and after Cobain’s death she was always thrown under the bus. I guess I mean that despite some odd stuff she has done/said I am keenly aware how much 20 years ago it was taken for granted she was ‘wrong’.