#500

Re: the Mulefa, itā€™s this old trope, innit? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage

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#501

Oh yeah, nice work.

That said, I donā€™t know Paradise Lost at all so maybe the trope is being knowingly used because itā€™s a reference in some form?

#502

The story of PL is Lucifer leading his rebel angels against God, being cast into hell where they regroup and decide what to do, and end up going to the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve and introduce sin to our world.

So the echoes in HDM is that Lyra is Eve (the witches even call her that), her temptation is succumbing to sexual / emotional experience, but for Pullman, rather than this being an act of sin that dooms us all, itā€™s a good thing because it shows engagement and conscious pleasure in the universe. The Mulefa are like the creatures in the Garden of Eden that exist before sin.

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#503

But in the telly adaptation there is switching between the two worlds, and as @funkycow has correctly identified itā€™s completely mystifying and pointless to those of us who havenā€™t read the books. I appreciate the programme brings something different to those who know the story, but for those of us that donā€™t it really is a pretty pedestrian telly series. Unsurprisingly it feels like a lot of book is trying to be crammed into a short series. Thereā€™s no room for the viewer to become immersed in the world.

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#504

Yeah I got that :smiley: I was referring to his query around how the book deals with it, which it doesnā€™t because it isnā€™t a thing there.

#505

Interestingly I just got to the bit where the Mulefa relate their version of the story and it seems like they are tempted by the snake too but in their version it tempts them to use their horns on wheels and that is the dawn of their consciousness so maybe theyā€™re just another creature that is analogue to us?

#506

Yeah, I guess the message is that everyone has to enter a state of experience / sin to truly exist, and resisting that is to be stunted, repressed etc.

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#507

Not one to particularly moan about characters not looking like I imagined themā€¦ But itā€™s been interesting to realise exactly how many characters - i.e. basically all of them - I imagined as being white (or who were possibly originally depicted as white, not sure).

Which isnā€™t a complaint, just a mildly interesting observation itā€™s probably worth me thinking on.

#508

Quite enjoying this, and Iā€™ve only read the first book, thought it was shite, and canā€™t remember any of it.

#509

Iā€™d imagine Philip Pullman probably did too. Itā€™s quite refreshing though.

What is a bit weird was we were watching the ā€œlive-action remakeā€ of Disneyā€™s Lady and the Tramp which is supposed to be set around 1920s America and thereā€™s just no way that society would have allowed a mixed-race marriage in those times! I do like it, but wonder if you can really cover up history like that.

Oh, and there were talking dogs in it too. I mean, how unrealistic can you get?

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#510

Itā€™s funny how much ahistorical stuff we let slide for sake of ease but as soon as race is an issue it becomes a talking point. Like, weā€™re all fine with Arthurian knights having perfect teeth and stuff instead of rotting stumps, but a black knight? Woah there, whatā€™s his deal?

I think the only place where colour-blind casting has issues is where race is central to the plot. Like, a colour-blind reboot of Get Out would do the story a clear disservice for viewers.

4 Likes
#511

Yeah I wondered about that. I have no real idea about mixed race marriages but I would say that when you listen to something like the History is Sexy podcast they are always pointing out that the rich and the upper classes write history and they are where we get our ideas from. So it was probably completely not on for a middle-class white person to be involved with a black person but then I wasnā€™t really sure what class these two are exactly, although it seems middle-class I guess.

Anyway, I guess I just mean that I noted what you noted and then realised that I have zero factual knowledge about the time and that a lot of stuff we are told is purposeful in whitewashing and minimising the stories of people that society doesnā€™t approve ofā€¦

#512

Okay, finished the book last night

I think overall I havenā€™t changed my opinion of The Amber Spyglass, itā€™s still the weakest of the three but I did enjoy it more than previously. It still hits all the emotional notes it needs to fine.

The thing I noticed was how all of Mrs Coulterā€™s stuff with the bomb was completely unnecessary although obviously itā€™s good for her character and I guess I am fine with the same being true of Poeā€™s plan in TLJ, but it irritated me a bit, particularly as Willā€™s fatherā€™s saving of them was so completely Deus Ex: suddenly he knows exactly what to do to save Lyra and even though he was a shamen it feels so unearned.

A similar thing happens with Father Gonzalez (?) being sent to kill them. The Tupali are very confusingly designed in any case, e.g. we are told they are growing more numerous but there isnā€™t any reason given for that, itā€™s not apparently to do with the Dust, but then also he gains their trust but then nothing comes about from that, and he himself is taken out without ever having any real moment to cause problems. Itā€™s anticlimactic.

In many ways the entire war is too. We donā€™t really get a sense of any reasons behind any of it. Is The Authority meant to actually have been good after all? How did he create the land of the dead?

#513

Good episode, that

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#514

I really love this show

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#515

That was the best episode for me so far.

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#516

The cliffghasts scene was the first time Iā€™ve felt tense during the show, not sure if thatā€™s cos I know the story or not.

Good episode!

#517

Really great episode.

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#518

I felt incredibly strong emotions when Serafina Pekala did what she did during the escape. Brilliant use of silence and reaction shots. Amazing. Love it

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#519

That was such an emosh scene.