#141

Abstain/5. Not sure I’ve heard any Hole. Really struggle with pretty much all US alt-rock of the era TBH, including Nirvana.

#142

Fair enough. Just explaining my understanding of the situation at the time. Didn’t mean to cause any upset. Suicide is awful; very complex.

#143

Yeah. Probably why it’s a good idea not to go around blaming it on other people then.

#144

I didn’t? I suggested why she’s disliked by Nirvana fans.

#145

Sounds like blaming her to me tbh. Even if there was a marriage breakdown (and no one really knows the full story on this) Courtney should have stayed in an unhappy relationship because if she didn’t she would have been a contributory factor to her partner’s suicide? Fuck that.

Like I say, I don’t know a single Nirvana fan who “hates” her. Any that genuinely do because of this horseshit need to have a word with themselves

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#146

I’m not really up for a debate about this. My cousin killed himself recently. Cheers though.

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#147

No idea tbh. It’s probably because my friends at the time were dickheads.

#148

Managed to see them twice in 1995 - once at Brixton and also at Reading: they were amazing both times. The Brixton gig was something else: the support bands (Solar Race, Prolapse, and Scarce) were incredible and Hole were ferocious. It blew my 17yr old mind!

https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/hole/1995/brixton-academy-london-england-3d30d0b.html

I don’t think it’s a big secret that Courtney Love has always collaborated on her music output: Eric Erlandson, Patti Schemel, Billy Corgan, Kat Bjelland, Linda Perry, Kurt Cobain etc have all helped out along the way. However, it’s always been 100% clear that she’s the sole lyricist. Live Through This is probably the best example of her at the top of her game - but Celebrity Skin and the single Mono (mentioned earlier in the thread) are great too.

They lost it later on in their career but Live Through This, My Body the Hand Grenade and Celebrity Skin are all great. 4/5.

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#149

Yeah I don’t think people do/should take anything away from what a good band Sabbath were or what a good frontman Ozzy was - and he didn’t even write the lyrics! If they can stay beloved given that then It should be a total non issue for Courtney and Hole

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#150

Yep. A phenomenal gig at Brixton. One of the best gigs I’ve ever been to.

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#151

‘violet’ must be one of the all time great openers, and all time great opening line of a song ever. Her vocal is also spectacular there, she really sells it.

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#152

I was in secondary school like 15 years after he killed himself and she was mostly a punchline to a joke when we were kids. Chalking it up to living in a misogynist culture / all boys school / not having access to her music (though I’m not sure hearing the music would have stopped me being a dick at that stage tbh).

That is to say, when the Nirvana thing got divorced from its historical period and you add in the ‘27 club’ bs about Kurt, you have no idea what people actually liked back in 92 when this stuff blew up.

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#153

Tbh reckon most guitarists sound like this beneath it all

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#154

Surely that Nick Broomfield documentary contributed a lot to legitimizing the conspiracy theories around Kurt’s death? I remember it having a lot of publicity when it came out.

#155

do you mean you have no idea about what people liked about Nirvana’s music, or am i reading you totally wrong

#156

A big fat abstain - always been meaning to listen to them though.

#157

Well I can only speak for myself and people I knew but I loved Nirvana and Hole. Saw both live, bought their records and t-shirts etc. Friends loved them both as well and the two bands drew me and my friends into Riot Grrrll stuff as well - I loved Babes in Toyland and Bikini Kill particuarly. I was a student in '92 and Courtney’s style and attitude definitely had a big influence on a lot of young women and the whole scene was definitely a big positive as far as I could tell in terms of just sticking it to misogynistic attitudes. I think a lot of young guys who had maybe been into the metal bands, who often used a lot of misogynistic imagery, were moved in a positive direction attitudes wise by Nirvana and Hole and that related scene.

Having said that the press was full of the Courtney as Yoko/Nancy Spungen hate figure garbage so maybe it really depended on where you happened to be at in terms of your interactions with the bands.

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#158

Yeah you got me wrong :grinning: but I was unclear tbf

For people I knew grunge was just Pearl Jam and Nirvana, whereas if you’re living in 92 and buying those records you’re probably aware of a wider variety of bands.

20 years later a lot of stuff gets forgotten for good reasons (Silverchair, anyone?), and bad misogynistic reasons a la hole.

Ofc I’m taking my experience in one particular very small corner of the world so your milage may vary

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#159

Thinking about it, my major ‘grunge phase’ was 95-97, and I don’t remember any anti-Courtney stuff from that time. Generally Nirvana fans also liked Hole. That documentary came out in '98.

#160

I’d forgotten about that. Probably right as Broomfield was quite a mainstream figure at that point wasn’t he. Loads of people who hadn’t bothered even with Nevermind probably saw that.