#101

Yeah Iā€™ve read this defence of it too. Not sure it holds up that well (the track is pretty much indefensible imo), but the one thing Iā€™d add is that this track is largely a one off - thereā€™s no pattern of rampant homophobia throughout his work. The trackā€™s also on one of his lesser celebrated albums which could explain why it hasnā€™t been addressed itt so far.

Not sure where the comparison comes from - apologies if Iā€™m missing something?

Think this is only one poster, tbf

Edit - should have added in case it wasnā€™t clear that I think the track is awful and I completely understand anyone being put off his work on the basis of of it

#102

I doubt that if someone had a good flow and great beats yet rapped about how the KKK were nice people, they would just be judged on the art.
In rap, the lyrics are probably the biggest thing. He will have a lot of impressionable fans who will them think it is ok to use similar language.
Unacceptable in my book.

#103

More of a sarcastic way of pointing out that an artist being racist wouldnt be accepted on these boards, so I am surprised from a board like this that it was being ignored.
Probably a poor way if making my point tbf.

#104

Love Madvillainy but whenever Iā€™ve delved further, his albums more or less merged together. This is probably on me and have been meaning to revisit but Abstain/5 for now.

#105

My tuppence worth.

Rap doesnā€™t ā€œget a passā€ for the absolutely despicable lyric content that is unfortunately relatively prevalent. 90% of the time itā€™s the first thing any non-rap fan will mention as a criticism and that is often valid.

However, there is an undeniable double standard (in wider society, not on here) about the ways in which other (letā€™s face it, ā€œwhiteā€) music gets away with similarly insidious views by being less explicit about them. In my opinion, the HGATR threads have been good for rebalancing that double standard specifically in this community. That doesnā€™t mean that rap gets a pass, it does mean weā€™ve ended up with a weirdly inverted perspective in these threads which would give a casual onlooker the impression that it does.

7 Likes
#106

(fwiw, Iā€™m digging into more MF Doom stuff today as a result of this thread and Iā€™m having a nicer time with it than I usually do)

#107

I agree with all this, but Iā€™m quite shocked tbh, this is a particular bad case

1 Like
#108

For sure, itā€™s fucking vile. I think every single person on here would agree with that.

8 Likes
#109

Donā€™t think he was getting a pass for it, and I certainly thought it was incredibly poor, and in a genre where things were slowly starting to improve with regards to treatment of gay people, it really stood out/was shocking in 2009 when it was released.

Not sure I buy his defence, essentially that you wouldnā€™t call a director who wrote a movie with a homophobic character a homophobe. Just canā€™t imagine a situation where he sat down thinking ā€œHmm what would the villain do next, yup be a massive gay basher.ā€ That said, I give other artists a pass for it, like Odd Future, for example, homophobic and misogynistic but were clearly a bunch of literal children just pushing buttons and obviously donā€™t hold those opinions. Iā€™ll also applaud artists like A Tribe Called Quest who were once homophobic in their lyrics, whoā€™ve changed their stance to be supportive of gay people and appreciate the journey theyā€™ve probably come through from their upbringing to get there.

I guess the fact that itā€™s not really something Iā€™ve picked up elsewhere in his music, interviews etc. mean itā€™s something Iā€™m willing to overlook overall, but I certainly thought less of him for it.

4 Likes
#110

Yeah I think he uses the layers of character, voice, personality etc. Really interestingly in loads of his work but there is nothing more than using a rizla thin veil to make some very bad homophobic ā€˜jokesā€™ going on in that track.

The defence holds no water. Until this thread Iā€™d sort of forgotten that song existed as Iā€™d not listened to the album itā€™s on for so long (never got on board with it outside of thatā€™s that) but had similar feelings wrt some of his misogyny

2 Likes
#111

Itā€™s a really tricky one to write about and cope with even handedly. On the one hand, of course Batty Boyz is a terrible reprehensible track and should be castigated. On the other hand I think itā€™s very easy for people like me (white rock fans) to listen to tracks like that or some of the objectification of women, for example, on a lot of hip hop tracks and go ā€œnope, this is clearly all terrible, back I go to only listening to music made by people who look like me and spend their time playing guitars through a bunch of pedals.ā€ criticism is absolutely valid but can also become a way of justifying not engaging with music made by a mostly black community. I know Iā€™m dealing in simplifications here, not all hip hop is black, not all rock is white and certainly not all hip hop is misogynistic (look at last yearā€™s superb Little simz lp) and Iā€™m sure people will jump on me for even putting things in these terms but I think itā€™s worth considering how much its worth engaging with problematic material or not engaging with and all the reasons for doing that may be much more complex than they originally seem.

4 Likes
#112

Yeah I think there is valid good faith criticism and criticism that sets of some dog whistley alarms.
Normally it comes down to whether the criticism actually cares about group x or is using it as a stick with which to beat hip-hop generally.

I think everything in this thread has been the former and its a massively worthwhile conversation

3 Likes
#113

yeah, bit disappointing he has never apologised for it like tribe, nas, common, etc have for some of their more regrettable lyrics. sort of buy the character thing because as you say, itā€™s not something that comes through in the rest of his material but even so, the response to that track was so negative youā€™d hope he immediately realised how misjudged it was, but sadly that doesnā€™t seem to have been the case

1 Like
#114

Itā€™s a truly awful track. Was actually discussed in The Smiths HGATR thread of all places.

1 Like
#115

The sad fact is that a lot of the artists from the 90s will have some problematic lyrics. I use him as an example a lot, but even someone like El-P, who I always considered as extremely progressive. Or the Beastie Boys, who are sitting quite high in this league table.

2 Likes
#116

Good track about him

#117

The idea that hip hop ā€˜gets a passā€™ is laughable- the opposite is true. It gets dissected and critiqued in a way that rock lyrics never have been.

One particular thing that angers me is how MCs are never allowed to write from varying viewpoints and express troubling views through those viewpoints. Itā€™s almost as if a certain type of white rock fan doesnā€™t credit them with the intellectual ability to do that.

I remember thinking this when we were having our ā€˜artist of the decadeā€™ poll and lots of people were justifying voting for Nick Cave rather than Kendrick Lamar because they found some of his lyrics (plainly written from multiple viewpoints) ā€˜problematicā€™. I narrowly held myself back from asking some of the, whether theyā€™d given much thought to the sort of lyrics Cave was singing when he was a similar age. Try this one:

I stuck a six-inch gold blade in the head of a girl
She: lying through her teeth, him: on his back
Hands off this one, hands off! she cried
Grinning at me from hip to hip
Hands off, pretty baby, tough bone then so soft to slip
Oooh yeah
I stuck a six-inch gold blade in the head of a girl
Sharks-fin slices sugar-bed slices that pretty red-head
I love you! now me! I love you!
Laughter, laughter
Oh baby, those skinny girls, theyā€™re so quick to murder
Oooh yeah
Shake it baby, cā€™mon, shake, shake it baby

God knows how cancelled a rapper would be if he came up with that one.

2 Likes
#118

Find this song really sad more than anything else, tbh

3 Likes
#119

Had totally forgotten about this track. Heā€™s an interesting guy.

#120

only ever heard madvillainy, think itā€™s good, though I think it should be a few tracks shorterā€¦ hmmā€¦ sitting this one out - noise_ramones