#401

I also got into them through solo Moz. Occasionally go back to Vauxhall and a couple of odd tracks, but they do smell a bit now

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#402

Love this and agree with almost all of it except the bit about there being a lot of chaff. Really don’t think there is but that is hardly the point.

After a break from them (and I probably said this up thread) I have uncancelled the Smiths and listen to them all the time again. I think they are probably the best band ever, although that doesn’t mean I think they should be everyone’s favourite band. Not listening to The Smiths which featured an absolutely stand up guy as more than integral, and a bloke who on his day was exceptional, but is now a dick is just cheating yourself, and overly hard on Marr.

But I guess everyone has to draw their own line.

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#403

Yeah I have zero issue listening to the smiths. Not gonna let Moz ruin it for me

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#404

This is a great post but for the above; Quarry and Ringleader are both fantastic. Anything past those is decidedly :grimacing: though.

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#405

Hatful of Hollow is by so far their best release I feel and always have.

Thinking here that Meat Is Murder is probably their best real studio album. Night shift coffee poses such questions.

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#406

Or, y’know, just doesn’t like them. Absolutely no need for that comment.

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#407

Except that their qualification of ‘rubbish’ was that the music wasn’t good - that is, of high quality, and that’s fundamentally incorrect. I qualified that comment carefully, clearly saying that, of course, no-one has to like anything. But to claim that the music is rubbish just isn’t factually accurate. There are myriad artists who do nothing for me, but in whose material I can clearly identify creative merit and skill.

By that token, I stand by my comment which was, I assure you, made intentionally as a rebuttal, and not a pejorative.

Ben

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#408

This articulates a lot I would have said.

I didn’t post much on this thread before, I think I was busy so I just answered ‘5’. Every so often, at least every 6 months I put on the 4 studio LPs in order and am yet again blown away by how good they are.

Two tracks next to each other on The Queen
 Cemetry Gates and Bigmouth
 are great examples of this musical talent. Vocals and instruments in synch and just a really propulsive sound. And hearing This Charming Man on a properly big system in a club shows how great it is.

#409

This is still just your opinion though, which is no more valid than saying that you find them rubbish.

Based on what? Your opinion again.

The quote rich pulled above is incredibly patronising and I’d liked to have thought these threads had moved on from this kind of thing tbh.

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#410

If we truly have reached that place where it’s impossible to separate subjective enjoyment from demonstrable skill/talent/quality, and where we’re unable to have that conversation, then DiS strikes again, and I’ll happily bug out, guys. It really is such a shame that discussions of this type have to descend into accusations of being patronising, rather than someone disagreeing fundamentally with the legitimacy of what they consider an inaccurate assertion.

No bother.

Ben

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#411

I think it’s fair to say I don’t understand musical composition. I’ve always found it weird that I love music so much, more than anything, and yet I have no musical talent - I can’t play it, I can’t understand it. I can tell you if I think something is good, or if it’s rubbish, but only on a purely emotional level of how it makes me feel - I can’t tell you academically if it is “good” or not.

It just so happens that I love The Smiths, so think they’re good. But if you told me, say, that Mark King from Level 42 was “good”, I’d have you take your word for it, because to me he sounds rubbish. I mean, I can appreciate that his fingers are moving very fast, so technically he looks to have some kind of talent, but I think the music he produced was terrible. But like I say, I’m not musical, so who am I to judge?

I suppose I should say Level 42 are simply not my cup of tea, rather than publicly saying they’re rubbish. Mark might be on DIS, so apologies for using him as an example, it was all I could think of.

On the other hand, I’ve had an internet argument with a musician who said that Peter Hook was rubbish in Joy Division. Now I can sort of understand where he’s coming from in as much as Hookie would admit that he wasn’t technically accomplished at that time and some of the playing is rudimentary - but at the same time, the ability to make something simple sound so incredibly beautiful and powerful is surely a level of artistic skill that very few people have? And post punk, which includes The Smiths and Joy Division, is sort of all about simplicity, right?

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#412

The 4 studio LP’s are great, however, my opinion is that they never actually made a classic LP. The Smiths have an unbelievable catalogue of great songs but a lot of them are non-album singles or B-sides. The LP’s themselves are flawed with some filler on them all i think.

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#413

I think Meat Is Murder is the closest they came to an all out Classic album and agree they didn’t achieve this (other than Hatful, which isn’t really an album).

I do recall thinking it was padded out by including Well I Wonder, which is fantastic but in the back of my head that was a B-Side before the album came out so it felt like (fantastic) padding, but padding nonetheless.

#414

True enough. The highs on those LPs are astonishing, but as you say with some OKish filler in parts.

#415

This is a thorny issue that we return to again and again on these threads. I do agree that most of what we say about music is subjective, but I do think you can say objective things about it as well - it’s just difficult to define where the boundaries are.

By way of example: I don’t listen to much classical music. I don’t know much about it and it’s not really my thing, except that there are odd bits that I love. On the other hand I can’t stand Mozart. Everything I’ve ever heard by him has made my teeth hurt. I’m with the Prince in the film who said that there were too many notes. Despite this, I think if I said that Mozart was ‘rubbish’ rather than just saying I didn’t like him and trying to explain why then I would just look like an idiot.

Not trying to speak for @bennyhana22 but I think this is what he is trying to say. There are artists who are legitimately ‘rubbish’ because they are derivative or shallow or just incompetent then there are artists that you recognise are none of those things but who you still don’t like. I think those are different categories.

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#416

Yeah, its tricky
i do think the original comment comes over as very very patronising (sorry @bennyhana22 ) and can see why its caused upset. But i also can see how its annoying when people just say things are rubbish with no back up


I think i could also have the opinion that anything is rubbish and that doesn’t mean i don’t understand it. I could understand everything they have done which makes them technically brilliant at song composition, but i can still think they are rubbish as to have all that technical ability and understanding, and yet still not be able to create a song which can illicit an emotional response from me shows they’re missing something (
to me).

I dunno, im talking rubbish and need to sleep! What am i even doing in a thread about The Smiths? I used to like them a bit at uni but thats about it.

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#417

It’s all bullshit isn’t it

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#418

It’s tricky certainly. I suppose the problem for me would be someone like Queen, who I hate with every fibre of my being. I have to accept that they are technically proficient and that their music seemingly connects emotionally with a lot of people (although I don’t really understand how or why given it sounds so shallow and contrived to me). Do I think they are ‘rubbish’ or do I just hate them? Probably the latter.

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#419

Someone is talented - Well maybe they actually started from a place of no natural aptitude and practiced loads.

Something is good - Well I don’t enjoy it so no it is not good.

Clearly a lot of craft and care went into it - Well maybe they did have a natural aptitude and didn’t actually have to try very hard. Maybe they lucked out? Maybe they had rich connections and that made everything easier.

#420

oh come on now, didn’t your elders ever tell you that all you have to do is work hard?

It irks me more and more to be honest. The amount of interviews with people where you hear
“and your parents actually were on circle jerk uk on bbc one in the 8os? isn’t that hilarious! and now you, somehow have made it on tv by the age of 20 doing nothing extraordinary, you must be blessed”

1 Like