#239

It’s funny all this as I see a lot of so called fascism coming from censorship driven by what other people would consider the left.

I also find it devaluing to brand UKIP and Trump Nazis as they’re nowhere near it. I’m not defending them, I’m pointing out that if everything is called fascist, nothing is fascist.

I’m too busy and way too inarticulate to express this correctly so apologies for the utter ramble, but essentially the point is something along the lines of free press, referendums, elected presidents and political engagement isn’t fascism.

I don’t like the shift to the right I politics, but I defend wholeheartedly it’s right to exist. And be expressed.

Was talking to on twitter about this a few days ago. Essentially a lurch to the right politically in a democratic framework in a free country isn’t fascism. It’s democracy and freedom.

Fuck the Sun and UKIP but fuck even more anyone who wants to curtail them. They’re the fascists.

#240

well this is an entirely predictable consequence of the old boy public school network and the economic & class divisions that it solidifies & amplifies innit?

things is fucked bad

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#241

No mate. Right wing views are regressive and awful. If you want to have a truly progressive society you can’t defend their right to exist. The need to be eradicated.

#242

this reminds me of an argument i’ve seen online a lot

person 1: you don’t support immigration, you’re a massive racist

person 2: by supporting immigration you support taking jobs and services away from indigenous* people of this country so clearly you hate them meaning YOU’RE the massive racist

so everyone’s a racist it would seem

*fucking horrible horrible word

#243

that second point especially is a sad indication of how far we done fell, as the bunk might say. yanis varoufakis cites stuff like this, among other things, as reasonable grounds to believe we’re edging towards a similar abyss to the 1930s and 40s. let’s not forget hitler was initially humoured and given multiple mainstream platforms, just some quirky politician appearing in fucking homes and gardens magazine, frolicking with blondie in the back yard, until suddenly he tossed the world into a bloodbath.

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#244

I think your position 1) here is down to a simple basic fact - right wingers think the very existence of the BBC ie a publicly funded media corporation - makes it a Leftist org whatever the content may be

lots of working class left are also sceptical of the BBC because it is, for similar reasons + the cost of the license fee, seen as an arm of the Government/weak in criticising the Govt.

I believe it is being consciously collapsed in the same way the NHS is being in order that a full capitalisation of the media by private means can occur

the BBC is really fighting for its survival - I really hope they pull it out of the bag

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#245

Yeah the whole “it’s just a different point of view” thing doesn’t wash. If it was just a tussle between ideologies - different ways to manage the economy or something then yeah - you could make that argument. But it really really isn’t. And to say it is is either naïve or sinister.

I’m always hoping you’re in the former.

EDIT - the “you’re” was @moker

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#246

Yep. Tabloids always putting the boot in to the BBC as well. ‘Overpaid presenters’ etc. etc. because Murdoch wants to control all print and TV output.

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#247

Out of interest, and I’m not making any suggestions or assumptions and definitely don’t want this to be taken as a personal attack because it’s honestly not, where would you draw the line of free speech and right to express political views? Like if we can defend UKIP’s right to push the ‘breaking point’ poster and the sun’s migrant bashing rhetoric, we’re not far off legitimising hate speech. Free speech is good but it is not an absolute good, people peddling lies to incite division and hatred shouldn’t be supported in anyway imo, otherwise we’ll be letting the KKK and holocaust deniers on question time

#248
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#249

I genuinely don’t see how the BBC can continue as a publicly funded institution.
It’s been edging further and further to the right politically for several years now yet is still continuously derided by the right as being liberal leftie luvvies. At the same time all this “striving for balance” and desperation to give a platform to all sorts of mouth-breathers means it’s totally alienating the more progressive viewers/listeners. So where do you go from there? You either drift into obscurity and obselescence (with the NHS) or stop trying to be all things to all people.

It saddens me how shit QT is now.

#250

Comparing Reporting Scotland with STV News, the former seems less balanced and fair to the Yes campaign if only in the tendency to give pro-independence statements a greater frequency of opening and closing debates. Overall, however, both feature a preponderance of anti-independence statements, a majority of anti-independence evidence and a heavy personalisation of the debate around the character of Alex Salmond with the latter often portrayed as selfish and undemocratic.

The overall approval rating for BBC news in Scotland was at 7.2 out of 10 at the end of 2015, down from 7.4 at the beginning of autumn and only slightly up on a low of 7.0 in the immediate aftermath of the 2014 referendum.

The approval ratings in Scotland contrast with those for the UK as a whole, where the BBC has had a relatively steady score around 8 for the last three years.

Opinions of BBC news have been diverging north and south of the border since the first half of 2013, when Scotland ranked the corporation’s coverage at 7.9, only slightly down from the country as a whole at 8. However, it took a steep turn downwards in the period around the referendum.

The trust’s report said that although satisfaction with Scotland’s BBC news output was generally high, concerns over impartiality were having an impact.

This whole Brexit episode has been like a re-run of the independence referendum on a UK-wide scale, with the same tropes and media deficiencies being exposed all over again.

Wouldn’t surprise me to see the rest of the UK follow suit in tiring of BBCs bullshit.

And the BBC Trust response seems to just be “people have concerns, but we’re great, and we just need to get them to realise that.”

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#251

indeed

as a case study, the BBC’s current position is a strong analogy for so-called ‘centre-left’ politics and the appeasement it has made in trying not to loose power, moving more & more to the right in order chase a popular wave and ultimately corroding central principles and losing core support
This is something that Labour have recently double-fumbled, splitting the party with a centrist coup followed up with their socialist, principled leader whipping the party to back the Tories on Brexit

Wonder what the world would look like now if the right wing media hadn’t hounded Ed Milliband with their shadily anti-semitic pillorying of his abilities with a bacon sandwich

#252

Yes horrendous. I agree. A dispicable man. But he’s acting within the remits of the law and checks and balances.

I think this comes down to ensuring the system is robust rather than whether or not we like who got elected.

America’s system is way more robust than the uk’s for example. They are just more er, reactionary as an electorate so vote in actors and personalities.

#253

They’re regressive and awful to you.

Your views are regressive and awful to other people.

They want you banned. They also don’t have the right to do that.

Welcome to freedom baby.

#254

Plenty of people have done awful stuff within the remit of the law, you can make a moral judgement on someone acting legally, and also push for a change in that law

#255

Can you tell me where you draw the line here?

I mean I’ll take it as read that someone yelling the n-word at another person or advocating that black people are subhuman to white people is a view that is objectively regressive and awful, right? I mean are you seriously going to say you respect the right of someone to hold those views? What about views that women are less important than men?

Regressive right-wing views are objectively awful.

#256

:joy:

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#257

as above. Freedom of speech is a right and it’s a good. But it isn’t a de facto good and doesn’t trump (for e.g.) the freedom to feel safe in your own home. Allowing racists to spout hate speech is to hold their freedom of speech in higher regard than their victim’s sense of security and safety

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#258

Yeah I should have pulled him up on that too.

@moker progressive views aren’t regressive to right-wingers. They are frightening but they’re not going back to some earlier phase of society that people remember badly, that’s the nature of what they are.

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