#121

On this note, I’m a big fan of the way Richard Herring constructed a joke in his Hitler Moustache show about racism that doesn’t punch down on the victim or up at the racist, but instead punches outwards at his own liberal audience’s prejudices.

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#122

Has anyone been called out here for still liking stuff by a Bad Person? I doubt it but then again its not outside the realms of possibility.

It must be embarrasing to have reccommended or gone on and on about how you like something that turned out to be tainted. The solution to this is Never Be Enthusiastic About Anything Ever.

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#123

The second thing because it stands to reason but it’s fine to make it, but I think really your point was that most rap was stuck in the first bit when I don’t think that’s true.
The first thing in general though outside rap is also true buttttttttt I think socially conscious rappers actually do more good than bad because if it’s fostering a genuine atmosphere where misogyny and sexist behaviour is vilified and discouraged that’s better than say, Family Guy

#126

No idea if they are or not?

#127

I’m sure watsky’s been golden

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#129

No sneering! Come on, man. Genuine teasing, I’m not enough of an expert on rap but I think there are definitely some - anywho, sexism occurs in all genres it just somehow manifests in different ways, maybe less so in bombastic lyrics.

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#131

This is the thing really isn’t it. No hip-hop fan can, in good faith, claim that the genre isn’t riddled with truly vile sentiments about women. It obviously is. But if other (whiter) genres were held to the same standards there would be way less of an assumption of misogyny comparatively.

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#132

I agree and without calling xylo a racist I think a lot of that presumptive attitude is mired in racism

#134

Leaving aside the genre thing for a moment, can I just say this is something I really struggle with in general; lyrics tend to pass over me most of the time; I hear most songs in terms of melody, harmonies and rhythms first and foremost; for all I know half of my favourite songs could be Klan anthems or something. :frowning:

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#135

white man from sexist scene tells black man to clean up his act

#136

It absolutely is rooted in racism but of a systemic nature rather than a personal one I think.

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#138

It really isn’t but if you think that, ok. I think every scene should clean up its act but it’s ok to recognise that privilege is inter sectional.

#140

I think there’s two things being conflated here though.

It’s not hip-hop being called out for sexism that I have a problem with, it’s the assumption of sexism in hip-hop. There’s a very subtle difference between saying “What about X though” when hip-hop is called out and saying “Can we maybe call out specifics as opposed to tarring a genre with the same brush?”

Like I said, in some alternate universe somewhere, the absolutely insidious attitudes towards women of the kind of emo that I listened to a lot of back in the day (and was entirely more damaging than any heightened hiphop but that’s another story) would be being used to invalidate any group made up of a guitarist, bassist, drummer and vocalist.

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#142

Fortunately not on the whole.

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#144

Oh I see, well I think most people specifically On Here listen to a great deal of problematic music, I certainly do, and just try and be excellent in real life.

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#145

One thing that troubles me about the Jen Kirkman thing is that towards the end of last year and throughout this year, she’s had a series of really bizarre breakdowns on Twitter about Bernie Sanders, Clinton and Russia, made offhand comments about Afghan kids and also black supporters of Bernie Sanders, then did the thing of blocking users who called her on racialized language, etc, basically made herself look a right berk and so on.

Then the Louis CK thing happened in the press and the online left just took it as a greenlight to beat the shit out of her rhetorically (although they’d already been doing that), and loads of people conflated her earlier behaviour with the accusations, saying how can we believe what someone this insane would say, etc, instead of saying woah, maybe she had those weird episodes because of the trauma/pressure she felt under w/r/t the CK situation, but that was never considered. It was just immediate dragging because she was revealing creepy details about a lefty fave.

Nobody thought about it any deeper and in hindsight it was a foretaste of Sam Kriss, the Labour MP revelations, etc, how there’s this ridiculous “ideologizing” of fkn rape and sexual assault, like we should support and believe victims until they go after a public figure we like, at which point we should suddenly start earnestly debating the pros and cons of supporting these people and making MRA-type “shades of grey” arguments to protect our own sense of identity.

@Twinkletoes This isn’t a veiled dig pal, I know this isn’t what you’re doing here.

#147

Oh, not necessarily, they just recognise life is full of hypocrisy? When I listen to The Smiths I know he’s an awful, awful cunt.

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#148

I think the bolded bit is the crux of this whole little subthread though and I hope it doesn’t come across as an attack on you because it isn’t, but the being vague with specificity in mind is what galls me. Call out specific artists, call out specific lyrics, call out specific insidious attitudes wherever they’re found. That is absolutely a good thing. But apply the same standards throughout innit.

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#149

I wasn’t really aware of that wider context with Kirkman tbh. Just that I’ve read all her comments on the matter and feel for her in that they led to a whole spiral of a story that I don’t believe directly pertained to the point she was trying to make.

#150

Natch.