Spain, then

Wait is it not cool to be pro Catalan independence? What did these shady as fuck capitalists want out of it?

Speak a different language. Some cultural differences- they really hate bullfighting for example. Way, way richer and more industrial/business success than most of the rest of Spain and resent sending money to places like Andalusia.

They formed their own independent region in the 1930s, and heavily opposed Franco in the Civil War. So he was pretty oppressive to them when he won, and made it illegal to use or teach the Catalan language. There’s a feeling that Franco’s heirs are still at power in the Spanish government.

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I think the issue is less the rights or wrongs of independence (that’s for the Catalans to decide themselves) but the fact the Spanish central government is attempting to block any referendum happening. That’s wrong, surely?

they’re cool with this tho:

It was also an independent state until around the C15th I think. Was Kent ever independent? Idk.

Seen a lot of people saying that the way in which the referendum came about was very flawed/undemocratic… But obviously the state using violence to try and prevent it is much worse and will only be counterproductive. (No idea why they haven’t encouraged no voters just to not turn up? Peaceful but prevents a sufficient mandate. That’s why previous indy refs have failed.) Been some absolutely awful videos on Twitter of police brutality this morning including on elderly people. Totally reprehensible.

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Well that’s ok because it’s not on teatowels advertising Perfidious Spain.

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Ridiculous but infinitely better ways to scupper the referendum by the spanish government than facism:

  • alternative referendum at the same time (daddy vs chips)
  • Switch all the signs arounds which give directions to polling stations
  • put something really good on TV

its more like London deciding to hold a referendum - Catalunya is one of the most culturally diverse and wealthy regions of Spain.

For the record, I support their right to hold a referendum, if the same right is extended to the other autonomous regions of Spain. The whole thing smacks of ‘well we’re doing alright now, so let’s fuck off’, which isn’t necessarily true anyway since the Catalan government is heavily in debt and its economy is massively reliant on the rest of Spain (infrastructure/manpower).

Cultural differences are really, really skin deep and overblown too. In fact, there’s no real reference point for ‘traditional Spanish culture’ as Spain comprises multiple different regions that have some distinct languages and traditions, so i don’t really buy into that as an argument for independence.

It should also be noted that this isn’t some workers’ movement for independence. Its very top heavy and I have no confidence in the movement’s leaders whatsoever.

I could talk forever about how awful the Spanish government is however, but I guess you can already see that from recent events.

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Also they used to speak a very very similar language to Catalan (Occitan) in the south of France, which is now almost dead, due to hundreds of years of centralising/standardising efforts by the French state. So there’s a kind of thing of looking at their neighbours and going “this could happen to us”.

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The brutality of the government’s reaction is obviously Very Bad but there’s a lot of simplistic analysis going on. Particularly the stuff about attacks on democracy etc.

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this seems… inappropriate?

was happening at the Chelsea game against Atleti too. actually, the Madrid and Andalucian teams sing that every time they play a Catalan, Basque or Galician club.

so, what next?

I saw something somewhere about there being two ships docked in Barcelona with as-yet undeployed Guardia Civil on them

Rumour was that if Puigdemont declares independence then there’ll be full Marshall-Law, arrest of the Catalonian regional govt. etc

No idea if any of this is remotely true but I can’t see things just returning to normal the day after Rajoy’s State thugs put a 1000 folks in hospital

what’s gonna happen? Surely the EU has to react/intervene ?

I’m a bit deaf, what are they singing?

que viva España

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What the lad’s saying is clearly complete nonsense and merits no real consideration.

I don’t think people should conflate a rejection of state violence, produced by a state acting in its perceived interests, with sympathy for the cause of Catalonian independence or support for their government (which is probably complicit in the violence, in their own way. Holding this referendum was irresponsible and they knew it).

Also this ‘thread’ is valuable
https://twitter.com/nandorvila/status/914534982793576448

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Also I’ve seen a lot of pro-independence Scottish (and Welsh) people on twitter using this whole thing as a way to create divisions between ‘left nationalists’ and what they think of as ‘the British left’. Par for the course for nationalism which, like every ideology whose vision isn’t tethered to a particular set of material interests, perverts and distorts thinking and is an impediment to basic socialist values like solidarity. Still kinda disheartening though.

yeah, I’m not doing any of what you’re suggesting and yeah that is a good thread if a bit ‘both sides are as bad as each other’

all I’m asking/wondering is what happens next? Stakes have been raised considerably today & Rajoy is talking like a madman… ‘There was no violence’ etc

there’s gonna have to be some kind of outside intervention for there to be a de-escalation