The Last of Us 🚨 spoiler outbreak!

I might be wrong but didn’t they only introduce the idea that Ellie was unaware of the risks in the show, whereas in the game she’s fully aware and willing to make that sacrifice? It was the one point where I thought they might be trying to smooth over some of the wrinkles in Joel’s character. But on the other hand I don’t remember him gleefully gabbing away about Sarah afterwards in the game, which felt properly psychopathic to me, when they both know what he’s just done.

1 Like

Feel like Joel doesn’t consider the success rate, because he has no interest in helping humanity. Even if the Fireflies were completely above board and could somehow 100% guarantee a vaccine - he would have done this anyway. It’s all about how he can prevent himself from being traumatised again, and him having a thing to live for. Joel doesn’t care about how sensibly, democratically, or morally the Fireflies operate, he doesn’t care about Ellie’s agency or feelings - he only cares about himself.

3 Likes

His motivations are wrong, yeah, and that’s hammered home in the aftermath. Doesn’t mean he’s wrong to stop them, the fireflies aren’t on solid ground ethically.

Oh totally, I think this is why it’s such a great and knotty ending. There’s lots of ways to argue Joel does the “right” thing - but his motivation is completely self-serving and immoral, not to mention that he goes too far when he gets to the surgery room, and his actions afterwards are extremely unkind to Ellie. It all gets even more complex in the sequel as well, so there’s that to look forward to.

Think this is a little bit tough tbh. The only thing we know for certain about the operation is that it will kill Ellie. We don’t know that the fireflies will be able to create a vaccine. Not saying that it would have necessarily changed Joel’s mind if the fireflies could somehow guarantee it - but you can’t say with absolute certainty that it wouldn’t have. Still makes his decision wrong, but don’t think it makes him a monster who has written off humanity to serve his own purposes.

Also saying ‘he only cares about himself’ seems pretty harsh on someone who’s internalised the trauma of having his only child shot dead in front of him. That must be up there with one of the most traumatic things anyone could ever experience. Doesn’t excuse or in any way justify what he did, but to paint his actions as coming entirely from a place of selfishness is over simplistic imo

3 Likes

I’ve got the second game, but have managed to completely avoid knowing anything about it. So I’m going to replay the first game (which I’ve only played once, years ago), then the DLC bit, then Part II. Looking forward to it all, but particularly interested to see how the end of Part I works now.

1 Like

Haven’t watched the show yet but I change my mind on the first game’s ending (and it’s consequences in Part II) all the time and it’s a big part of why I love it.

1 Like

this.

i think they are, the whole world is at stake

Yeah I get what you mean. For me, I don’t think Joel will agree to any scenario where Ellie dies, and that comes from what it would mean to him. The sequel explores this more - he doesn’t make any mention of the Fireflies success rate as far as I remember, and certainly doesn’t dispute that he did this all for himself. My thinking about Joel is definitely influenced by his depiction in the games, which go harder on him being a horrible bloke. The way that he’s so similar in the show, but different in a few crucial ways, hurts my head a little!

I don’t think they have the right to decide that

1 Like

Yeah, I think you are almost certainly right about this. I could potentially see a situation if the vaccine was guaranteed and he and Ellie had discussed it and she had persuaded him this was absolutely what she wanted, then possibly, but probably not even then.

Not saying Joel was right to do what he did at all, just don’t think it’s pure selfishness. We know that he’s experienced some of the worst trauma imaginable and by the sounds of things the intervening 20 years have been pretty horrific as well. Think his psyche’s probably been damaged beyond repair by this point

1 Like

For everyone:
(Public)

  • Joel was right
  • Joel was wrong
  • Somewhere in between

0 voters

For parents:
(Private)

  • Joel was right
  • Joel was wrong
  • Somewhere in between

0 voters

For non-parents:
(Private)

  • Joel was right
  • Joel was wrong
  • Somewhere in between

0 voters

In the accompanying podcast Neil Druckmann mentioned that people were pretty split on Joel’s actions when polled but parents 100% agreed with him.

As a parent, I agreed with the brutal executions of all of those people

6 Likes

I’m basing this more on the game where Ellie explicitly tells him she wants to do it and he goes against that rather than the show version where that series of conversations doesn’t exist in which case I would be a ‘somewhere in between’.

1 Like

I feel like it’s far too binary to deduce from either version of the narrative that Joel is bad, selfish, avoidant of further trauma, etc. He’s a ruthless man in a very ruthless and hostile world. All of his selfishness is guided by protectiveness, even right at the beginning when they drive past another family on the street. Likewise I don’t feel like the takeaway from the ending is that he’s not willing to be selfless for the sake of humanity - it’s that he’s a fallible, vulnerable human being who’s only capable of acting on his gut impulse of what is right, which would never allow him to let Ellie be killed in any scenario.

11 Likes

The whole world is gone at this point though, isn’t it. What is it, 20 years? Civilisation collapsed, billions dead, the survivors traumatised and given up to fascism, no actual infrastructure through which to mass manufacture or administrate a vaccine. It’s a game/TV show where we’re all just protecting onto the characters what we make their values and motivations to be so not suggesting this is an active thought process in Joel’s “mind”, but in loads of ways the world in this story is long beyond saving.

2 Likes

Agree with this. Think actual people and so fictional characters can very easily be self-serving while still deeply caring about other people. Maybe Joel’s actions would be a lesser talking point if we’d had more showing of and less alluding to the events that had shaped him.

Ellie wants to do it because they both think she’ll be giving a blood sample, not her entire brain? Shes already unconscious by the time she gets to the hospital and they don’t wake her up to explain what the actual deal is. it’s only after, with hindsight, that she says she would have still been willing.

1 Like

ah, must have misremembered - It’s been a while since I played it. In my mind she was aware of the potential risk but wanted to do it anyway.