Joel was 100% right btw, the fireflies were knocking out teenage girls and harvesting their brains for their mad science experiments and there wasnât a conversation or consent form in sight. He just could have been slightly less T-1000 about it all.
10 Likes
Literal brainworms
Iâve been entered into a draw to win a PlayStation and a copy of the game though our NowTV subscription, feeling confident
2 Likes
I might be wrong but didnât they only introduce the idea that Ellie was unaware of the risks in the show, whereas in the game sheâs fully aware and willing to make that sacrifice? It was the one point where I thought they might be trying to smooth over some of the wrinkles in Joelâs character. But on the other hand I donât remember him gleefully gabbing away about Sarah afterwards in the game, which felt properly psychopathic to me, when they both know what heâs just done.
1 Like
Feel like Joel doesnât consider the success rate, because he has no interest in helping humanity. Even if the Fireflies were completely above board and could somehow 100% guarantee a vaccine - he would have done this anyway. Itâs all about how he can prevent himself from being traumatised again, and him having a thing to live for. Joel doesnât care about how sensibly, democratically, or morally the Fireflies operate, he doesnât care about Ellieâs agency or feelings - he only cares about himself.
3 Likes
His motivations are wrong, yeah, and thatâs hammered home in the aftermath. Doesnât mean heâs wrong to stop them, the fireflies arenât on solid ground ethically.
Oh totally, I think this is why itâs such a great and knotty ending. Thereâs lots of ways to argue Joel does the ârightâ thing - but his motivation is completely self-serving and immoral, not to mention that he goes too far when he gets to the surgery room, and his actions afterwards are extremely unkind to Ellie. It all gets even more complex in the sequel as well, so thereâs that to look forward to.
Think this is a little bit tough tbh. The only thing we know for certain about the operation is that it will kill Ellie. We donât know that the fireflies will be able to create a vaccine. Not saying that it would have necessarily changed Joelâs mind if the fireflies could somehow guarantee it - but you canât say with absolute certainty that it wouldnât have. Still makes his decision wrong, but donât think it makes him a monster who has written off humanity to serve his own purposes.
Also saying âhe only cares about himselfâ seems pretty harsh on someone whoâs internalised the trauma of having his only child shot dead in front of him. That must be up there with one of the most traumatic things anyone could ever experience. Doesnât excuse or in any way justify what he did, but to paint his actions as coming entirely from a place of selfishness is over simplistic imo
3 Likes
Iâve got the second game, but have managed to completely avoid knowing anything about it. So Iâm going to replay the first game (which Iâve only played once, years ago), then the DLC bit, then Part II. Looking forward to it all, but particularly interested to see how the end of Part I works now.
1 Like
Havenât watched the show yet but I change my mind on the first gameâs ending (and itâs consequences in Part II) all the time and itâs a big part of why I love it.
1 Like
this.
i think they are, the whole world is at stake
Yeah I get what you mean. For me, I donât think Joel will agree to any scenario where Ellie dies, and that comes from what it would mean to him. The sequel explores this more - he doesnât make any mention of the Fireflies success rate as far as I remember, and certainly doesnât dispute that he did this all for himself. My thinking about Joel is definitely influenced by his depiction in the games, which go harder on him being a horrible bloke. The way that heâs so similar in the show, but different in a few crucial ways, hurts my head a little!
I donât think they have the right to decide that
1 Like
Yeah, I think you are almost certainly right about this. I could potentially see a situation if the vaccine was guaranteed and he and Ellie had discussed it and she had persuaded him this was absolutely what she wanted, then possibly, but probably not even then.
Not saying Joel was right to do what he did at all, just donât think itâs pure selfishness. We know that heâs experienced some of the worst trauma imaginable and by the sounds of things the intervening 20 years have been pretty horrific as well. Think his psycheâs probably been damaged beyond repair by this point
1 Like
For everyone:
(Public)
- Joel was right
- Joel was wrong
- Somewhere in between
0 voters
For parents:
(Private)
- Joel was right
- Joel was wrong
- Somewhere in between
0 voters
For non-parents:
(Private)
- Joel was right
- Joel was wrong
- Somewhere in between
0 voters
In the accompanying podcast Neil Druckmann mentioned that people were pretty split on Joelâs actions when polled but parents 100% agreed with him.
As a parent, I agreed with the brutal executions of all of those people
6 Likes
Iâm basing this more on the game where Ellie explicitly tells him she wants to do it and he goes against that rather than the show version where that series of conversations doesnât exist in which case I would be a âsomewhere in betweenâ.
1 Like
I feel like itâs far too binary to deduce from either version of the narrative that Joel is bad, selfish, avoidant of further trauma, etc. Heâs a ruthless man in a very ruthless and hostile world. All of his selfishness is guided by protectiveness, even right at the beginning when they drive past another family on the street. Likewise I donât feel like the takeaway from the ending is that heâs not willing to be selfless for the sake of humanity - itâs that heâs a fallible, vulnerable human being whoâs only capable of acting on his gut impulse of what is right, which would never allow him to let Ellie be killed in any scenario.
11 Likes
The whole world is gone at this point though, isnât it. What is it, 20 years? Civilisation collapsed, billions dead, the survivors traumatised and given up to fascism, no actual infrastructure through which to mass manufacture or administrate a vaccine. Itâs a game/TV show where weâre all just protecting onto the characters what we make their values and motivations to be so not suggesting this is an active thought process in Joelâs âmindâ, but in loads of ways the world in this story is long beyond saving.
2 Likes