I hope you would acknowledge your mistake and learn from it
Hope is a hell of a drug.
But maybe people think SP are uncool because they don’t like them, rather than not liking them because they’re uncool
Don’t think I’ve agreed with anything in this thread as much as your use of the past tense right there.
Please don’t take this as an opinion on SP or an attack on you TTF, but I honestly don’t think it’s actually possible to objectively judge music quality. That’s why HGATR threads are so fun.
Like an addict I’m back.
Siamese Dream and Mellin Collie would be well represented in an aggregate of 90s UKpress top 100 albums of all time. As this was all largely preinternet it is hard to evidence this but casting my mind way way back to say 98ish I’m sure Siamese dream was in the top 20 and mellon collin top 40 of the top 100 albums of all time I saw in Q magazine round about them. Bear in mind this is a long time ago but that seems to be my recollection.
They seem underrated to you because you rate them ludicrously highly - which is fine - but trying to present this as historical fact is strange. They were massive, had albums that were critically acclaimed (that deserved it) and machina got a mixed response (deservedly, a few tunes but too much guff) and finally this might just be a personal bugbear of mind but I find it odd to talk of any massively successful band being underrated.
Heh I can’t speak for all the naysayers here but from my point of view it’s exactly the other way round.
I’ve been on DiS since 2006 and I’ve never ever seen users as hell bent on convincing the doubters that the band they love are OBJECTIVELY AMAZING and even their palpably ropey material is genius grade awesomeness as the two ts do in this thread.
Radiohead fans can be painted as a touchy bunch but I’m yet to meet one who when faced with “the King of Limbs isn’t that great” didn’t go “okay, whatever, I still like it but whatever”. I’m yet to meet one who went to such lengths to PROVE ME WRONG AND IT’S TOO DO WITH HOW COOL THEY ARE PERCEIVED TO BE AND MEDIA BIAS AND IF YOU PEOPLE COULD ONLY SEE THROUGH THE CONSPIRACY YOU TOO WOULD LOVE KING OF LIMBS. YOU WOULD. YOU REALLY WOULD. HERE’S A LINK TO A YOUTUBE CLIP OF A DEMO FROM AROUND THAT TIME. AND ANOTHER.
and the Smashing Pumpkins seems like such a weird cart to hitch this OBJECTIVELY GREAT horse to. I mean if it had been dinosaur jr- amazing guitarist but marmite vocalist, classic albums decades ago then reformation, not a million miles away from the sp path, I would get it. Dinosaur Jr’s last three albums have been ace, pretty much up there with their original run (and they have their bassist back in the fold too) and J Mascis hasn’t been on info wars or anything. So I’d think it was a bit full on, this slavish adulation, but I’d go “okay, live and let live”. But the Smashing Pumpkins? Really? Part of me is still waiting for a “ah we got you!” from the longest of long con pranks.
But just to reiterate, I’m not trying to persuade you to not love them. I know I can’t. Music is inherently subjective, you fill your boots. From my point of view it’s the ts who have been trying to convince us doubters that we’re wrong (objectively!) which is kind of what makes this thread so addictive really.
Lots of more important things to address, but I figure I’ll take on the Pavement thing quickly since it’s fresh and seems to have gotten a lot of traction. Overall I don’t think it’s a big deal at all and doesn’t even factor into why 99% of people think negatively about Billy, but I do think it’s a data point showing that people like it when people shit on Billy Corgan. For those of you who are arguing Billy was in the wrong:
If in an alternate world Billy were on tour with the Beatles in 1993 and he dedicated a random verse on Siamese Dream to saying “I don’t give a fuck about John Lennon”, and Lennon kicks him off the tour - would you be defending Billy as you did Pavement? Or would you be calling him a dick and saying “serves him right, use some common sense, don’t be a dick”?
If in an alternate world a more uncontroversially likable band (say Sleater-Kinney) were on tour with a less famous band, and the less famous band dedicates a random verse to saying “I don’t give a fuck about Carrie Brownstein” and Sleater-Kinney kicks them off the tour - would you be saying S-K are the villains? Or would you not be applauding and saying serves the smaller band right and commenting on how bizarre / immature it is that someone would dedicate a random verse to shitting on someone?
90% of the signatures in my yearbooks from 1996-2000 were variations of “Billy Corgan is a fucking looser [sic]” or “Billy Corgan is a [homophobic slur of choice].” It kind of matched what we’ve been saying about their place in music circles - too out there for the meat-and-potatoes crowd but not cool enough for the art kids.
hasn’t been my intention at all, just saying that The Narrative being built up around them in here doesn’t ring true to me
If the tour was a travelling festival not organised by The Beatles, then yes.
If the tour was a travelling festival not organised by Sleater-Kinney, then yes.
Not sure what this proves other than
- you presumably also spent 1996-2000 talking endlessly about how unfair life is on Billy Corgan, the millionaire rock star
- you went to school with a loaf of absolute melts and I’m very sorry about that
Haha, I barely spoke at all, but people just knew I liked them and felt the need to express how much they hate them. Not really making a big point or anything, just a comment on how they weren’t perceived as cool.
Nah I get obsessed with bands easily, was a huge Radiohead obsessive through my teens, go through regular Fall obsessions nowadays as well as a few other bands. I enjoy how much you’re both into SP as it reminds me of myself.
Just feel like there are easy explanations for their critical standing other than media manipulation or everyone being wrong, that’s all really.
Could be wrong cos there were a few massive sp threads around for a while, but wasn’t this thread originally about whether or not Smashing Pumpkins were better than Nirvana?
Also, from my memory, plenty of non sp threads have been derailed in previous months (although not so many recently admittedly) by sp chat by you guys so I think the “coming in to this thread” argument is a bit rich frankly. If you think that the sp thread should just be for mega fans to bang on about how great he is then fair enough I guess we can all leave you to it, I’m very happy to mute this thread and carry on with my life if that’s the case.
But it IS weird, from my point of view. Really weird and I think that’s what keeps bringing me back to it. There isn’t anyone on the social board seriously proposing, as far as I know, that the earth is flat or that we’re really controlled by alien forces and if there were I’d be all over those threads instead. I’m a sucker for the ‘what makes intelligent People think that’? I used to LOVE it when evangelicals would try to sell me on jesus, it’s quite exciting to interact with someone with that level of blind fervour that you just don’t get yourself. In the absence of flat earthers or similar, you guys are the best I’ve got.
Maybe it’s not healthy, I dunno, maybe I need a new hobby. I love how much you love sp and I just can’t understand it and it’s like probing a missing tooth with your tongue.
everybody seems to be obsessed with something these days, where have all the people gone who can barely like anything?
Just want to address this quickly even though ttf did too. I certainly don’t expect everyone to love the Pumpkins, but there definitely is a certain group of artists where a) it’s uncontroversial to say they’re the best or an all-time great, b) if someone criticizes them, it’s normally prefaced with “I respect their talent, but (their music just doesn’t do much for me)”, and c) it’s acceptable for people who barely know their material to say they’re the best.
Artists like The Beatles, Bowie, Prince, etc. pass these three things.
But given the sheer depth and scope and quality of Billy’s catalog, I think he deserves at least to be respected like that.
I’ve said it before and I’m sure I’ll end up saying it again later today when addressing other points, but I think most people (and especially the ones who are pretty vocal in criticizing him / thinking it’s weird that people could love him so much) inaccurately view him as an alt-rock singles artist and are missing the many other sides to his work.
I agree in so far as Beatles prince and Bowie and just good artists the same way billy could be, smashing pumpkins definitely have more range than Prince.