The Smashing Pumpkins - Rage against the Machina


There was definitely a backlash to them around 1997 (think it actually started earlier when Billy shaved his head). I mentioned it WAY up thread, but the press started giving him the “Lisa’s going to marry a carrot” treatment. To this day I’m still having to explain to people that Adore isn’t a techno album.



Nirvana were underrated.


In all seriousness there are things said in this thread that truly boggle my mind but I enjoy the back and forth, and everyone seems to be discussing things in an amicable way.


Love nirvana. Feel zero need to “defend” them or any other band I love really.

Come on man this was a running gag at one point. There was a lot of “don’t make me tap the sign” and thread titles being changed to outlaw sp chat it got so bad at one stage. Like I say that was a while ago so whatever but it das definitely a thing at one stage.

Wasn’t trying to offend and I’m sorry it came across that way. Actually I can see why that would be offensive, was just trying to show what the appeal of this thread is to me.

Oh and people are! But by and large I think most of us are much more chilled about their criticism.

I love p j Harvey!
I think she’s overrated!
Well OK that’s your opinion on we go with our lives.

Plenty of mega fans on here for loads of artists but not many of that “this is my bunker I must defend it with my life” mentality that sp inspire in you two. I mean you’re going to say this is cos sp are the best and inspire the most loyal fans and good luck to you with that view but from where I’m sitting its because most of us are less touchy about our favourite things being knocked. If I had a pound for every time I’ve heard people say “you love cricket, but it’s so boring!” I could buy my own county ground but I don’t feel the need to post screeds defending the game, cos, you know, whatever.

Anyway good luck to you. I’m glad you are passionate, I’m glad that people care about stuff. I’m sorry that my bafflement at the object of your affection causes unhappiness. Maybe I should mute this thread for a bit.

v much this

I do think generally this thread is loaded with hot takes, but an atmosphere of (mostly) good-heartedness.

Might spur on a big run-through the albums, in which case I’ll turn this thread into Manches’ SP Listening Club. Zeitgeist sort of lost me on release and that’s where my teenage love of the band kind of died a little bit – as much as I still love loads of the earlier stuff.

Really don’t think it’s a stigma rather than just most people…don’t think they’re one of the all time greatest artists in the world. Imagine someone saying Pavement should be considered one of the greats alongside Bowie and Prince and the Beatles, obviously sounds ludicrous and there’s no stigma there.

I love my favourite bands dearly but the idea of any of them being held up to that standard in popular consciousness still seems bizarre.

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(Reckon there’s a decent argument for Nick Cave by now actually but not a hill I’d die on)

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Think the stuff about three generations of music journalists having an industry wide vendetta against Billy is pretty tinfoil hat tbh, but I accept that’s not so much you putting that forward

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I think ttf explained what I was getting at pretty well here:

And that leads to horrible music journalism (see Pitchfork’s weirdly aggressive Machina review where they say he has a baby head for one of many examples) / clickbait like that horrendous Vice article “A Brief History of Billy Corgan Losing His Mind” (which is basically if a reddit comment became sentient and got paid to write a hit piece) getting accepted as fact.

Billy has done and said some shitty things in recent years, but I firmly believe that if you asked a random sampling of people if Billy Corgan is a dick (whether 2019 or 2000), 99% would confidently say yes but be unable to explain it if asked why.

There’s a lot more I want to say (especially on the subject of Mellon Collie as a risk), but it sounds as if everyone needs a break and I kind of do too. This thread is simultaneously fun and maddening, which I think mostly everyone can agree upon.

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You’re right, Smashing Pumpkins were my favourite band around that time, I read every review of Siamese Dream i could and don’t think anyone rated it less than 80%. Mellon Collie I don’t remember, I was pretty lukewarm on it myself, but in retrospect it seems more highly regarded than the previous albums so I’m not sure where this media conspiracy stuff comes from. Maybe Adore and Machina were mocked slightly because they just weren’t that good. Music moved on and Billy Corgan didn’t. Bits of Machina are good but Adore was bobbins and no, I am not going to get into a discussion about how it would have been better as a quadruple album (footnote: having re-listened to it recently, Mellon Collie is TOO FUCKING LONG)


Honestly, most people don’t know who he is mate.


Around the time they made their first duff album, hmmm. When Billy Corgan fired his drummer and said ‘We don’t need a drummer, we’re going to be Depeche Mode!’

Also, @ttf, Smashing Pumpkins were my favourite band in 1996 and I still thought Billy Corgan looked like a twat in that Zero t-shirt

He kicked him out because his drug habit was going to kill him otherwise, it wasn’t an ego move or a “we don’t need a drummer” move at all.

Adore is a beautiful and special album. While I personally don’t think any other band has released an album better, I don’t expect others to feel that way but think it should at the very least be considered up there with the other sad classics of 1998 like XO, Good Morning Spider, and Electro-shock Blues.

On that note, I think Billy’s music has more in common with Mark Linkous’s music than the music of the bands he’s usually compared to. Maria’s Little Elbows always struck me as Corgan-esque.

I just figured Adore was for them a bit like Kid A was for Radiohead, an album that swerved from the rock music they were known for.

As such you get a backlash, it happens to any artist that changes sound, just as Bob “Judas” Dylan.

It’s not my sort of sound really and until I saw it live I was fairly unsure about most of Kid A too if I’m honest. These days I enjoy it but still it’s way down my RH list because I’m still fundamentally more into their rock sounds (and while I appreciate the Warp sound I think RH’s interpretation isn’t that amazing).

Fuck , this thread is still going !


And one of the main people to buy into the “the press don’t like Billy Corgan” narrative is… Billy Corgan. And it leads to things like this:

So often with this thread I’m just drawn back to something I wrote in the Morrissey thread, a man with which Billy shares some unfortunate parallels.