#3740

Really great posting this

6 Likes
#3741

for what is to come worldwide we need to foster an unshakeable moral principle in people that cannot be removed by 1 or 2 elections. Even leaving the moral case aside, starting to say some racism is ok and some deaths are ok if they are currently expedient to win the vote will never be enough once the real climate emergency begins if we want any kind of future at all

3 Likes
#3742

maybe I was too young but blair & brown being in power didn’t seem to plant any solid belief in people did it?

#3743
13 Likes
#3744

He sounds like a white supremacist; believes in the dignity and rights of human beings but maybe sees everyone outside his social virvel as being subhuman

#3748

yeah but what was the belief other than the tories were done?

#3750

The second. And capitalising the word needs makes clear your opinion, but clearly a centrist would not agree with you on that point.

Really the only point I was making was that centrism is not the same thing as sitting on the fence on every issue.

#3751

Yeah. I mean they tried a bit & lord knows it’s hard to break the message through a media that is so heavily against …but that’s part of putting the frame forward. Having a strong message and making it stick.

Even on the NHS I think it was the wrong tactic to say the Tories are going to sell it off to Trump/big pharma - easy for Boris to deny and turn it back on Corbyn that he is a crank - instead he should have shamed them for the state it’s in now which is firmly the result of Tory cuts.

And that’s just one example

3 Likes
#3752

Well fair enough

Deeply embedded frames somewhere in there

1 Like
#3753

confusing reading so many different takes, how to know what is the biggest factor

is it

Brexit
Corybn
The Media
Lib Dems
Demographics
Rainy Day

#3754

Mainly the first three.

1 Like
#3755

then an even bigger question “is an election defeat enough reason for a party to change direction”?

#3756

Had this ready if the exit polls were better. Can’t be arsed sitting on it

1105954~2

12 Likes
#3757

How can you succeed in building a society where everyone is of equal worth in a capitalist system where economic divisions are 1) How society is organised 2) are deep & deepening by the day and 3) are built on a foundation of systemic racism in a landscape of post-colonialism?

#3759

I’m not about to start arguing somebody else’s hypothetical position. The second para of my last post is the end of my contribution here.

#3760

Ah well in that case & given he has little response when pushed on issues maybe he’s just one of those message-repeater types who’s happy to go along with the prevailing ’wisdom’

1 Like
#3762

Think it was covered but we’re a racist country so centrist economic policy will be racist.

7 Likes
#3763

So you reject the idea that we live in a post-colonial capitalist landscape where racism is systemic and social divisions are growing ?

How very centrist

#3764

All of them were a factor (and more) to a greater or lesser extent.

For me, the future of the Labour Party is not answered by whether the next leader or policy platform is social democrat, Blairite, Corbynism, neoliberal, true socialism and the rest of the buzzwords.

You might be enthused in one or some. You might even recoil at the others. I find it all a waste of energy.

A far more fundamental question exists for Labour and it is not answered by how it is organised at the top. One phrase that chimes with me, and is not a slight against Corbyn despite how it might appear, is “Labour has the right family just the wrong leaders”.

The family is the community institutions I referenced in my earlier post in this thread. The leaders are the party itself.

It has, to various extents and for a long time, tried to coordinate progressive politics and advocate a different society for those it thinks it represents. And yet these same people do not feel involved with or represented by it. The link is broken.

It needs complete reinvention as it faces the toughest electoral prospect at the next election. The comfort is, the people that will continue to define the movement very much exist. Labour should enable them.

4 Likes
#3765

Kinnock can fuck off

12 Likes