The video to Ava Adore

Yeah I had a cursory look ar MSG tickets over an hour after they went on sale and there were plenty left. Have a feeling the prices put a lot of people offf - pretty sure I saw some upwards of $300 and I’m talking actual Ticketmaster here, not whatever scummy resale subsidiary they operate. For comparison, MSG is the kind of venue Pearl Jam, to this day, sell out in minutes

That’s crazy isn’t it? I’ve no idea how much impact PJ’s more recent records have had in the US but it makes you wonder what’s going on there, unless it’s just down to pricing like you say. Pumpkins were at one point about as big as bands get - on a level at least with Pearl Jam. Maybe it just didn’t last long enough to leave a lasting impression on some people.

Yeah, Pumpkins and Pearl Jam were both equally huge (I’d say the Pumpkins were even bigger around the Mellon Collie era), but Pearl Jam has the absolute best fanbase on the planet. Both have a nostalgia-driven segment - I know plenty of people who would go to see Pearl Jam and be pissed off that it’s not just “Jeremy” and “Alive” being played for three hours - but with Pearl Jam they’re vastly outnumbered and out-vocalized (this is important) by people who know and love everything they’ve done and who are excited for new material.

Billy certainly has those amazing fans too, but they’re drowned out by people shouting at him to play rat in a cage and greatest day, and exactly like they’re played on the album (30 years in and people still haven’t figured out that Billy screams and plays songs fast). I think people would be shocked by how much of the general public thinks the following things:

  • Billy Corgan is just some whiney guy singing James Iha’s songs and doesn’t play guitar
  • Billy Corgan’s name is Billy Corrigan
  • James Iha is an Asian woman named D’arcy
  • Jimmy Chamberlin is dead
  • Billy hasn’t written music since 1995

Part of the difference too is that Pearl Jam has settled into a comfortable routine where you know what you’re going to get from them and everyone is ok with that. Billy is still changing things up pretty considerably from album to album, and while I love that and think it’s great, portions of the fanbase are inevitably going to be chipped away when he moves in a direction they don’t like. And Billy, as much as people yell at him to just shut up and play his 90s hits, has a different set of expectations placed on him due to his sheer creativity, the magical nature of the original run, and his post-Zeitgeist tendency to make grand proclamations and not exactly follow through. Even if he’s writing great material, it’s going to be reported on as falling short and over time fewer people are going to be coming out to see him.

Yeah, it’s really amazing how he hit that sweet spot of being despised by everyone (and even more-so that he simultaneously managed to have the biggest band in the world). I know Kim Gordon was trashing him in her book for not being “indie” enough - the idea of Sonic Youth thinking they’re above or even remotely in the same league as Billy Corgan is one of the most laughable concepts I can imagine.

Fucking Hell.

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Prefacing this with that this is just my opinion - I’ve recently come to terms with accepting that Sonic Youth isn’t very good. They do have a few very good songs (Teenage Riot, Silver Rocket, Orange Rolls Angel’s Spit, The Empty Page, and maybe a couple others) and one special one, but for the most part it doesn’t feel like they’re trying. It’s like he’s throwing as much dissonant stuff at the wall as possible and hoping that a) something sticks or b) people think due to the sheer volume of music and lack of good hooks that there must be something more. Whereas Billy’s songs are so well-crafted, melodic, tense, ugly, beautiful, intense, furious, calm, etc. (and often in the same song). And he can write an album - to me SY has never really done anything cohesive. He’s orders of magnitudes above them and a singular talent. (God forbid he had the audacity to want to be successful.)

I really wanted to like them too because on paper, they’re a band I should love. I think the bands often listed as being heavily influenced by them (Trail of the Dead and Ought, for instance) run circles around them.

Fucking Hell.

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Yeah, it is strange (and frustrating) how a direct influence manifested in so few bands. In the 90s I know Feeder, Our Lady Peace, and Hum were always being mentioned, but none of those are the same obviously. Post-2000 Silversun Pickups are the best and only obvious example I can think of, and I know M83 was influenced by Mellon Collie. Deftones probably too by Adore.

I strongly, strongly believe though that Adore was a major influence on the indie rock of the past 15 or so years in general. I’ll probably wait awhile to write that dissertation though.

I think the reason Sonic Youth were so influential is because they had a sound / idea that was great and had huge potential, but they left so much room for it to be improved upon and delivered in a more focused and intense manner.

That’s really disappointing to hear about Sigur Ros. I hate when people view the Pumpkins’ music as being a stepping stone to the “real” stuff or not serious or for kids. The worst person I knew in high school said “they’re too distortion based” (he prefers Phish and jazz, obviously).
One, distortion is fantastic. Two, I think his lyrics are much more complicated and applicable to all stages of life than “more serious, more adult” artists who go on and on about “sins” and drinking and religious imagery.

And yeah, you’re right on the money with everything you said there. Good call on some post-rock being heavily influenced by him - the new Mogwai for instance has Corgan traces all over it, especially “Battered at a Scramble”. This is giving me the idea to put together a non-Corgan Corgan playlist, I’ll have to work on that.

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used to love those live clips i’d see on mtv2 back in the day, around 2002 or so. got into shitloads of bands that way. there’s an amazing jamc one where they do “reverence” and they look so cool and bored and pissed off and the feedback is just insane.

forgot how much i like the smashing pumpkins, great band.

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It’s actually impossible for me to agree more with this.

I spent many confused hours, trying to like their music and wondering why people thought that Sonic Youth were a “great band”.

So much so that I’m convinced no one actually likes them…I’m right aren’t I? You’re all just kidding and youve all been involved in this huge plot to convince me that Sonic Youth are a “great band” rather than a steaming pile of dog shit.

Im not sure what happened with Teenage Riot…maybe they had an off day when they wrote that one. In fact, it’s been my default sentence whenever I encounter someone that pretends to like this band “not really…I like Teenage Riot though [if that helps?]”

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This is now the Sonic Youth debate thread

Sonic Youth

  • Brilliant. Haters just don’t understand the meaning of art and are corporate pop dweebs
  • Literal Dogshite that makes Metal Machine Music sound like Mozart
  • I like Daydream Nation and Goo but my fondness for melody stops me from going further

0 voters

Smashing Pumpkins

  • The best band ever to have existed. Criminally underrated by soulless jocks #freeBilly
  • Music that people ought to have grown out of by 18
  • Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie are worldies, I like a few tracks from Gish and Adore, but my god there’s a lot of shit around them

0 voters

GISH and adore are good too. recent stuff is not good though.

For clarification, “a lot or shit around them” is referrin to the other albums. Gish and Adore tracks vary from average to great

Anyone know what’s up with Gish not being available on streaming services? It’s not on Spotify or Tidal as far as I can tell. Zeitgeist is also missing.

The Zwan album is also nowhere to be found, though that’s far less surprising.

I can see Gish on Spotify. Are you in the UK?

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literally listened to Gish on Spotify last week

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I honestly didn’t know anyone liked Smashing Pumpkins as much as some of the posters in this thread. Sometimes I wonder if @TAFH33 and @ttf are Billy Corgan.

I should probably listen to Smashing Pumpkins properly sometime.

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Of course it was there when I checked again just now wasn’t it. :roll_eyes: