The video to Ava Adore

[RatKingCole]

Presumably it will only be a matter of time until James Iha has had enough and the wheels fall off again. Corgan sounds so spiteful

[Amity]

“Then he got whatever Asian guy to play guitar”. That’ll be Jeff. Who has been a band member almost longer than she was.

Reads a bit like a hatchet piece this. Feel for her, but i’m not sure this is the full story. Who listens to the Pumpkins because they think Corgan is a “nice” guy anyway?

[ttf]

I think the texts and their press release don’t match up, so unless the texts are faked I’m inclined to believe her. Lots of people saying how reasonable and concerned Billy sounds, but I think her characterisation of ‘doublespeak’ is pretty accurate. He says she can be involved as much as she wants, she says she wants to be fully involved, he just keeps ignoring what she is saying as if he is trying to manoeuvre her into his position as if it is her own. The amount of stuff she must have put up with from him over the years I don’t blame her for going public.

I don’t listen to the pumpkins because I think Corgan is a nice guy, but there was something really nice about how despite how bitter things had got they were back on good terms that made me really excited about this reunion, now it seems like it is the kind of cynical cash in Corgan has always said he would never do to plug his finances after the wrestling folly

[Amity]

It’s a big old mess. Typical of the Pumpkins really

[ttf]

yeah, I guess I just hoped billy was being sincere when he said even if they never play another note together the most important thing is being on good terms again, turns out the reunion circuit did come first

[Amity]

Perhaps. But it doesn’t sound as though they have ever been particularly close. She admits as much in the interview their combative relationship, and what she suffered as a result. There’s only so much you can do when that’s the kind of people you are and the history you have

[iaminterested]

Billy’s not stupid and must understand that most of the value in an SP reunion is D’arcy being there.

But if I was him I’d have severe reservations too: this is someone who hasn’t been on stage in nearly 20 years and probably hasn’t even played bass in a long time.

[hankscorpio]

But if I was him I’d have severe reservations too: this is someone who hasn’t been on stage in nearly 20 years and probably hasn’t even played bass in a long time.

Yeah this basically, as much as Billy is a dick, when I inevitably pay hundreds to see some proportion of the original lineup I kind of want them to be good.

[ttf]

That’s why they should have given her a shot to find out whether she could or not in advance of arranging everything. People seem to assume because she has had no public involvement in music she can’t play anymore, might be the case, but as she says in that interview she is a classically trained musician, her bass parts aren’t particularly technical I’m sure she could be up to it

[ttf]

Some really nasty stuff emerging in the pumpkins Facebook group, a known associate/collaborator of Corgan talks about a photo showing how messed up d’arcy is, then an instagram pops up, has candid photos of Corgan and early ogilala sketches so probably someone in his camp, and the photo of D’arcy. The photo isn’t very flattering, she is obviously older, had some surgery on her lips and her chin is covered in blood, doesn’t mean anything just a photo of someone who has an injury but it’s being used to discredit her. Really hope the announcement tomorrow just turns out to be a machina reissue

[anon7376884]

Yeah, a much smaller timescale but I’m pretty sure ex-Interpol Carlos D joined the David Letterman tv band after 5-6 years of not playing and said that “muscle memory” in his fingers went a long way to him actually doing alright. Obvs 20 years is a lot longer and there’s more at stake here but if that is the sole reason it seems odd bordering on disingenuous not to let her prove she can still play.

Fair enough if it’s over other concerns I guess

[Caedus]

One of my favourite bootlegs that one. Simply incredible. If memory serves correctly they were belting out my favourite version of Thru the eyes…at that time. It was two years after i saw them them and have so much love for that period.

Setlist from the gig i went to was pretty flawless, & included this run:

Here is no why
To forgive
Today
…Ruby
Porcelina
Bodies
Disarm
Bullet
Cherub Rock
X.Y.U

God i’d like to see that again.

Shame all this reunion/announcement stuff has got so messy. I think Billy is an amazing songwriter but a massive dick. However, can see why he would have reservations about D’arcy due to a number of reasons which you guys have already gone through. The texts to me look like they may be missing some responses from D’arcy also to tell a certain tale. I dunno, i’m undoubtably gonna pay a load of cash to see them when they tour, so i want them to be ace so I agree with Billy to an extent. I guess the big issue was why they couldn’t just sort it out behind closed doors.

Anyway, fully fucking stoked for some more potentially good pumpkins coming out.

[TAFH33]

Amazing, amazing interview. There’s a lot to unpack in here. There are some things that I definitely believe, and other things where it seems like an unreliable narrator situation.

• The thing that angers and disappoints me the most is finding out Billy supports Trump. I’m really hoping out of everything, that’s just a smear attempt on her part. Maybe she’s right about the tumor - I’ve said it before, but I can’t wrap my head around the guy who wrote “33” or “Mayonaise” or “For Martha” or “Jupiter’s Lament” (the list goes on and on obviously) going on to support a senile racist monster. He was happy about Obama’s election too, I don’t get it.
• Don’t forget that if Billy had done an interview like this, he would have been absolutely crucified for it.
• I enjoyed how much she called him a dumb ass.
• I think it’s pretty understandable for Billy to be annoyed when he quietly gives her three months off to recover and she does a movie. I think it’s also understandable why she feels doing the movie was fine.
• I know she’s the bassist, but Billy was the songwriter (I’m not sure why it’s so hard for people to accept that Billy Corgan is the songwriter for The Smashing Pumpkins who writes pretty much all the parts. This is how it works in many other bands, and that individual is usually celebrated for their talent. It would be like getting pissed off at Lebron James for being too involved in the offense.) If he’s got an idea in his head for a bass line (or cello part), I think it’s pretty reasonable for him to suggest what she’s playing isn’t matching what he had in mind.
• If Billy’s only contacting them through other people as she’s saying, that’s pretty shitty.
• The business stuff is pretty gross too.
• The “I’m not addicted to anything” and “I’m the healthiest Pumpkin” stuff kind of sets off alarm bells for me.
• I can understand why D’arcy and James were mad at him, but on the other hand no one ever points out that Billy had every right to be furious with them. He was in the middle of an insane creative period (after the end of his marriage and death of his mother, no less) and they basically quit on him. Plus the “Thru the Eyes of Ruby” story pretty much sums up the situation for me. I forget where I read it, but it was something like Billy wrote the song and then told James and D’arcy to come up with their own parts for it, and they just never bothered so he went in and quickly put down 60 guitar tracks or something.

The most striking thing though to me out of all of this - and the least subject to different perspectives - is that they never got in a room together before deciding to do this. Given their history and the expectations and the way the media and fans handle them, that’s just sheer lunacy. Especially on Billy’s part, because he’s the one with the most at stake and he has to know that at this point. If this reunion didn’t go perfectly, he was going to be ripped apart for it whether it was his fault or not. It’s incomprehensible that he didn’t quietly get them all together to work everything out and get on the same page prior to announcing or planning anything.

[TAFH33]

Yeah, that live Ruby they were doing around that time was unbelievable. That extended outro where they build the tension instead of going into the MCIS nighttime theme, and then it just explodes with Corgan screaming into the solo. Greatest band ever.

[ttf]

reckon it is quite likely that he just didn’t think she was up to it from the get go and was always trying to manoeuvre her into a marginal role he had envisioned, which would have been fine if from the get go he presented it like that from the beginning rather than toying with her, like if he said ‘D’Arcy you haven’t played at this level for 20 years, I know you have had problems and I can’t have you under that kind of pressure, for your sake and the band, but I do want you to be involved if you would like to’ I don’t see how she could really argue that, but he doesn’t he kind of presents it like it is completely open and she can have as much involvement as she wants, but then when she wants maximum involvement he isn’t actually willing to give it to her. Just strikes me as a cake and eat it situation, he didn’t want her full involvement but didn’t want the fall out of being the one to take that decision so tries to manipulate her into it being her decision

[TAFH33]

Yeah, that wouldn’t surprise me at all.

I really wonder if there’s some missing piece we haven’t been given yet, because the way this all was handled is absurd. It would have been in Billy’s best interests from a PR perspective (and probably a financial one too) to have D’arcy on full time - he has to know that - so it seems like the logical thing to have done would have been to sit down with her, explain things like you mentioned, see where she’s at, and go from there. Text conversations and third parties were such a bizarre way to go about things. If he was coming from a good place initially (which still wouldn’t surprise me) and was concerned about her ability to handle it, he shouldn’t have presented it as a “full involvement” thing before even meeting with her. I wonder if he thought she couldn’t handle it, and given their history he thought she’d say no anyway and he could say he made the effort, but she surprisingly wanted to do it and he was kind of trapped and kept trying to dig his way out of the hole he created for himself.

It’s a mess. He could write the best album he’s ever written and pull off the best tour, and this is going to be the story.

[ttf]

read people on Facebook say the whole thing is a publicity stunt, related to Billy’s experience of professional wrestling, would love that to be true

[ttf]

guess maybe the issue is with people like billy with, um ‘strong’ personalities, is they have trouble seeing things from other’s perspective, he had his ideas of how things should go and thinks/expects everyone to think the same and then gets surprised when people don’t act how he wants them to

[TAFH33]

That would be so incredible. How amazing would it be if all of the spiritual nonsense and Infowars thing were carefully crafted components of a long game, and at the end of it he comes out and trashes Alex Jones. I can dream.

[Severed799]

IT’S A WORK BROTHER