The video to Ava Adore


#161

i have never come across this at all. most people think of him as an egomaniac who re-recorded the other members’ parts because they weren’t good enough.

there’s a huge difference between “shut up and play the hits” and “please don’t play all of your new 4 hour prog opera about boats” or “please don’t play a modular synth jam for 24 hours in a cafe while reading siddartha”

as ttf pointed out, most of the damage done to his legacy was done by himself.


#162

Yeah, I agree completely. I know a lot of his peers, particularly Sonic Youth, held it against him that he wasn’t “indie” enough and that he wanted to be the biggest band in the world. It also probably didn’t help how (rightfully) combative with the press he was.

And yeah, if I think about it objectively, it shouldn’t have been that much of a surprise that a lot of people abandoned him at Adore (and I’m saying that with it possibly being my favorite album ever). But at the same time, the incorrect “the Pumpkins went techno” narrative ahead of its release didn’t do him any favors, and a lot of the time I think a case can be made for Mellon Collie being more of a departure from Siamese Dream than Adore was from Mellon Collie.


#163

You’re lucky, I encounter it a lot, whether online or in real life. Yeah, the perception you mentioned is way more common, but I still think it’s an unfair one. In many, many bands there’s one person who has the vision and is the architect of everything, and they’re celebrated for it rather than maligned. Given the quality of the output, especially on the initial run, I think it’s fair to say he didn’t make a mistake.

I personally wasn’t interested in it, but The Siddartha thing shouldn’t have been as controversial as it was. It’s not like people showed up to a Smashing Pumpkins concert and got that instead - it was just a small personal project done on his own time. Plenty of artists do stuff like this and don’t get torn apart in the press for it - they just get a “oh, they did something this weekend” blurb and that’s the end of it.

The long, reworked songs he does live definitely aren’t going to appeal to everyone, but I think they’re what make the shows special (even if sometimes they can be frustrating). It’s always been that way, even at the band’s peak - people would boo and curse him and walk out of the '97 Silverfucks, and now they’re widely regarded as the “holy shit, I wish I had been there to hear that” moments.


#164

The Pavement thing was literally just a throwaway lyric that Corgan took to heart and blew out of proportion. Genuinely think Corgan was the arsehole there and it showed up how pompous he was.


#165

I disagree, I think that’s one of Corgan’s more justified moments, fair enough if it was just the bit about not understanding them but to follow up with ‘and I couldn’t give a fuck’ is pretty disparaging in my book


#166

Malkmus changed his lyrics on every take, so that line was just a throwaway. For Corgan to read that much into it reveals some serious insecurities on his part. The man’s a fucking embarrassment and that’s only one incident out of many that proves it.


#167

I still disagree, doesn’t even register on the scale of bad things Billy Corgan has said for me. It may have been one version of the lyrics amongst many, but would he have known that, and does that even matter given it is the one they chose to put out. If I were in his position (unlikely I know) i’d feel the same, Malkmus just seems unnecessarily snide in doing that. Don’t even think Corgan’s response was that bad, he just took a pop when they reformed to do the nostalgia/legacy circuit, which given his band were the ones considered ‘sellouts’ by the cooler indie bands of the era, seems understandable to me, pavement took a pop at him, he took one back


#168

What’s interesting here is that lyric was sung pre ‘Mellon Collie…’ so Malkmus must have been sick of Corgan even before that. Corgan responded at the time with a line stating “No-one walks down the street whistling a Pavement song.” which suggests he didn’t rate Pavement.

I frequently sing Pavement songs to myself as they’re so catchy and Smashing Pumpkins are a punchline now thanks to Corgan. I listen to Pavement all the time, SP are a nostalgia band.


#169

Yeah but it’s fine to respond in a way to suggest he doesn’t rate pavement if it is in response to a diss. As for which of those bands is the nostalgia band, kind of subjective based on which you like (personally I think pavement are one of the all time most overrated bands, numerous bands were doing similar stuff they get all the credit), but in the critical sense Corgan used it, pavement did just reform and play the hits for the money, while the pumpkins produced new material. So I can see from his point of view, never having been accepted by his indie peers for being a sellout (even though most of them were on majors), pavement being a quintessential band of that ilk and one that disparaged his band on record, criticing pavement for doing an obvious for the money reunion is fair


#170

It must be maddening for him that he is so often overlooked when it comes to acclaim etc given the wealth of material he produced but… he just does not appear to have the objectivity to see that any such destruction of his legacy has been largely self inflicted. Anyway, one of the charms of the Pumpkins, for me anyway, was that they were overlooked largely by the mainstream despite their huge sales. Even at their height of their powers they were seen as a bit of an anomaly or joke band. Being so wilfully obtuse and contrarian is ok when you’re bashing out Tonight, Tonight, but not so much with Teargarden by Kaleidyscope. If they would have called it quits after Rotten Apples and he had largely kept to the fringes releasing weird solo things, I think the Pumpkins would have been seen seen more as the trailblazers they were. As is, a decade of increasingly and precipitously diminishing returns alongside the right wing weirdness, wrestling entanglements, transgender phobic comments and on and on has seen them given short shrift as it relates to their legacy.

Also, yes - Machina (and much of Machina 2) is incredible.


#171

Agree with you 100% about Pavement and the situation. My wife finally got me into Slanted and Enchanted and Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain, but the rest of their material I’ve found to be whatever. There have already been and will be more Pavements (and better ones), but there’s never going to be another Smashing Pumpkins. Ironically, “Range Life” is my favorite Pavement song.

I think he’s acknowledged it in some interviews, but not to the extent that he probably should have given he’s still in the midst of the worst thing he’s ever done and will be until he denounces Alex Jones and admits he truly, truly fucked up there.

Agreed. Whether it’s fair or not. starting again under the name “The Smashing Pumpkins” was never going to be a success in the way he wanted. By that point the media was already against him, fan expectations and excitement were so high, and there was too much of a “Where are James and D’arcy? Can he do it without them?” thing taking place. Personally I’m glad we’ve gotten all of the new music - I thoroughly enjoyed Zeitgeist and Oceania, and hearing Superchrist / Gossamer live before I knew what they were was pretty incredible - but I wish he had done it under another name for his own sake.


#172

Fucking Hell.


#173

Has anyone listened to the podcast he did with Daniel Carter? Had a listen this morning. Three choice moments -

  • “You’ve gotta be from the street to know the street…” - Doesn’t he own an island?
  • When discussing Roger Waters concert when a pyramid rises at the end and people get emotional, he and Daniel acknowledge they’re not sure why it’s so affecting. Billy agrees it taps into their lizard brain “back when we were slaves…”
  • When discussing the recent hurricane disaster areas, Billy remarks how it’s tied into a pattern of needing a father figure to come in and save the day (or something like that). The point he’s trying to make is muddled and seems tasteless given what’s been happening recently.

He also makes some half baked comments on the electoral college (he seems largely in favour, stating it’s in place to keep populists out…erm) and Brexit, stating it was a movement (doesn’t specify whether he is necessarily in agreement but there’s an implication) rather than an effort to mislead.

I dunno. It made me sad on my morning commute


#174

Ugh, that’s depressing, I really thought he was going to be putting this stuff behind him. It’s so strange, in so many interviews and on certain subjects, he comes across as an incredibly intelligent, rational, and thoughtful person; and then you get stuff like this and going on Infowars. It’s like two completely different people.

I also love how conspiracy theory people / people who pride themselves on digging for the truth simply cannot resist giving political opinions / analysis that two minutes of cursory research or even spending two minutes with a goddamn dictionary would immediately refute.


#175

this is a shame

though classic pumpkins, for there to be bad will before it is even announced


#176

Last I heard D’Arcy would’ve been in no condition to go on a tour. I know she’s meant to be clean now but she was in pretty dire straights when it came to mental health.


#177

Is that her with pink hair in the article?


#178

The picture is called ‘darcypicnew.jpg’, so… I guess? What a terrible website.


#179

This has a great quote in it

Back in June, Chamberlin recalled a quote from Wretzky about what it was like to be a girl in Smashing Pumpkins: “It’s like being married to three guys you wouldn’t even date.”

:smiley:


#180

I really wonder what happened. No matter what the situation is (and even if he made the decision for her own well-being), he’s going to get ripped apart for it. The tour and album could be the best he’s ever done, but the media is going to do nothing but latch onto no D’arcy.