#104

kneading won’t affect the proving but it will affect the strength of the gluten. If you can wait for the water to work it’s magic on the flour over time then it’s no big deal but you can shortcut that somewhat by bashing it about a bit. If you need to get 15 rolls made in under two hours that aren’t dense and cake-like then you need to knead (IMO).

#105

That looks great - I’m going to give it a try :slight_smile:

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#106

Yeah the key there is “a bit”. There is a lazy British tradition that a bit is ten minutes, but I can name at least two respected professional bakers who will argue the actual required kneading time is counted in seconds not minutes.

And of course there’s also the evidence of my own eyes.

#107

Update - I tried to make a banana and sultana version of this last night. And it was even more embarrassing. I think banana really screws things up in bread - there is no stretch at all. Also I think I got the flour and malt proportions wrong again!

#108

Yeah, ten minutes is too much.

And if you have something slower rising like sourdough then gently stretching it periodically over the course of a couple of hours has a similar effect.

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#109

Worth pointing out too that whereas @anon44377095 no-knead loaf looks lovely and is no doubt delicious, the exorbitant time it takes to make is nothing to do with the rise, it’s all about developing the flavour and to a lesser extent the crust. It’s basically a half-way house sourdough.

#110

I’m not sure I agree with that. I think the main purpose of the length of time is to let the gluten develop fully through natural water/flour reaction to give a good stretch which translates to the dough being able to support larger air bubbles giving it the open structure / crumb. I couldn’t speak to the taste, which is why I’m going to try it :slight_smile:

The rise could easily be sped up by using more yeast but if you tried that and baked after 2 or three hours you wouldn’t have the structure.

#111

I would like to see some science backing this up, because there is most definitely a strong strand of received wisdom in baking circles as I see it. Anyone who’s done a bit of curious investigating with their dough can see that a dough mix changes dramatically in texture and perceived wetness after being left completely alone for ten minutes. That’s as long as it takes for the gluten to hydrate at least, and it does it all by itself.

The simple fact is that I get a well-aerated crumb, clearly with significant gluten strands (similar to the crumb of @anon44377095), that forms in a well-risen loaf, with a basic mix of the ingredients, 30 seconds of Bertinet style stretching and an hour and a half of proving. And I get it every single time. It amuses me when people tell me that that’s impossible.

Personally I think that the heavy kneaders are after a uniform crumb rather than a structured one. And that may be the outcome. It’s not a result I often bother to go for.

But like I say I’d love to see the results of a real scientific study of it. And I’ll admit I’m too lazy to go looking for one.

#112

Team Breadmaker: what are your slicing skills like? It’s all about hitting that sweet spot where the bread has cooled enough but is still all soft and fresh. I think 14 slices (plus crusts) is my record on a 50/50 quick bake loaf.

(Of course, sometimes all you want is the most ridiculous of doorsteps to stick on the side of a bowl of soup)

#113

I’m almost certain I have received that wisdom, I can’t say whether it was in person or off the internet but I’m definitely certain I’ve not seen the science behind it. And I too am not going to look (at least until later on)

You are stretching though, not simply leaving it, so that has got to have some effect on the gluten development. Have you tried it as you describe minus the stretching? In my experience the dough is a lot less strong without the stretches.

And yes, I knead when I want a bread with a uniform crumb, such as for packed lunch rolls where an open structure would be a pain.

#114

I don’t think it’s survived well :frowning:

#115

You know what. I’m going to do an experiment. This weekend. Mix vs 30 secs knead vs 10 minutes knead all the same dough, baked together.

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#116

I did find this https://modernistcuisine.com/2018/04/gluten-how-does-it-work/

#117

FUCK SAKE

Went to make a 50/50 white / seeded whole grain last night. The timer for wholemeal wouldn’t bloody work! I had to put it on basic white instead. It’s come out a bit un-risen again (not un-risen as such, more like the top is a bit… deflated?), but not as bad as last time (no picture, sorry @ynot) which leads me to believe it may be this particular flour, as it’s full of seeds.

Anyway, a bit pissed off there may be a problem with my machine. Will be gutted if I need to send it back.

I picked up a bread machine book in a chazzer at the weekend and there’s a recipe for some kind of India chickpea bread which I’m gonna have a bash at this weekend :smiley:

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#118

Did it collapse while it was proving or while it was baking?

#119

I’ve no idea - I had it on overnight. I did increase the amount of yeast compared to last time (1 1/4 teaspoon) and it’s definitely not as squat.

#120

Hmm I’m guessing now, but maybe the extra yeast got the rise you wanted but without the dough having the time (or perhaps moisture…) to get enough strength.

This may or may not be relevant. I’m assuming you’re using dried yeast. If so then if you’re using the sachets that’s probably fine, but if you’re using a tin then bear in mind it goes off if you don’t use it up relatively quickly.

In your situation though I’d perfect the recipe by hand at the weekend. More opportunities to observe and control things.

#121

Actually the more I think about this the more I’m convinced. Assuming your breadmaker can be made to do this then revert to the previous amount of yeast and set it to have a longer proving time. Maybe also add a bit more water.

#122

I was also thinking that ours didn’t rise that well because the flour was also full of seeds. I’m also planning on a 50/50 white/seeded whole grain. Will let you know how it goes.

Which book did you get?

#123

not using sachets, using this:

image
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which gives an enormous rise on a white loaf, and I get through it pretty quickly so I’m pretty sure it isn’t off, but I do bear that in mind

but yeah I think you’re right w/r/t not getting the rise. bloody silly thing. i’ve contacted morphy richards, i’ll see what they say. and yeah, you’re right about observing when perfecting it by hand.