Trump and Melania have the Coronavirus

[profk]

[Ruffers]

most prison abolitionists see it as an end point of several improvements to human society, not least vast wealth redistribution, cultural changes and education, moves towards de-centralised autonomy and policing, decriminalisation of various banned substances etc - it’s definitely an end point rather than a starting policy

[Ruffers]

places like the Netherlands have taken pretty huge strides towards all these though so it’s not completely utopoan or unthinkable

[barleysugar]

Stop talking about prisons and focus on whether we think Trump is currently able to breathe unaided

[Acorn]

if you’re saying it’s male biology, I’d counter that with how people can be psychopaths but not end up violent criminals or abusing power - nurture over nature, these crimes come from how people are socialised.

also the way I see it is that the prison system is shrunk down, even if I believe a world without prisons is a perfect world which we’ll never be able to create.

as I’ve implied: working towards the idea abolishing prisons is something that would reduce the number of people in prisons along the way, move away gradually from the idea of punitive justice over rehabilitative justice.

the criminal justice system is unjust as it is, and creates and fosters criminal behaviour (and indeed profits from it).

[Bamnan]

just my thoughts but maybe a radically different society that had a really efficient and compassionate political and social structure that cared for everybody equally could talk about the concept of murders and rape differently i.e. if people do have behavioural traits that mean they are likely to commit acts like this they and others can be made aware of this in a non-judgemental way, monitored like people would be for other medical conditions etc. Of course we are not in that society which is why it’s hard to even conceive and talk this way

[Epimer]

@laelfy

I’ll be honest I don’t think murder and rape will ever be eradicated, ever, which brings me back to my original question of what would the alternative to prison be

Even if prison abolitionists don’t have one good, concrete answer to that specific question, I think it’s important to remember that the current system is not some natural creation, it’s one that human beings have invented and choose to perpetuate, and which also does not have answers to lots and lots of questions.

So by requiring an abolitionist argument to have a perfect answer to ever circumstance, you’re holding it to a much, much higher standard than the argument for having prisons. Obviously it’s status quo vs radical change so there’s some requirement to defend why the change is necessary, but I think the bias towards the status quo needs to be kept in mind as warping the argument.

[colinfilth]

@barleysugar

Stop talking about prisons and focus on whether we think Trump is currently able to breathe unaided

To be honest it wouldn’t surprise me if he’s always needed a crib sheet.

[laelfy]

I suppose I see statements like that as quite black and white and not ‘abolish prisons (after xyz …)’

[the_ravens]

Fair enough I could have come back with a longer reply, but I didn’t get genuine interest from the question.

Honestly though, the alternatives are wide and varied and what is most appropriate in which situation does depend on the specifics.

Discussions on this regularly descend into people throwing out edge cases and expecting a proponent of abolition to have a satisfactory answer to hand and if they don’t using this to write off the whole idea.

When I have more time I can point you are the resources and information I have read to reachmy position but they are fairly easy to find on Google.

[LilWoodyToodelly]

I reckon if we were working towards shared goals in a flattened structure we’d get rid of loads of crime and we’d have a strong sense of community and we’d be looking out for everyone so things would be good. then for people who are completely unwilling to be a part of that type of society they can go live a forest life

[laelfy]

I appreciate your responses on this matter, thanks for engaging with me

[Im_On_Safari]

Look at the absolute state of the dated decor in there!

[Bamnan]

like efforts and resources should be put into reform and medical care, I’m sure they are to some extent but ideally somebody should be given the opportunity for reform to the best of people’s knowledge and then if that isn’t seen as possible people should receive medical treatment, prisons are a sign of our collective failure imo

[ttf]

I’m wary of evolutionary psychology type arguments, but think there is evidence that shows male/female offending ratios skews towards men everywhere in the world, but there are massive differences in the absolute offending rates between countries, so society must play a role in enabling it so it must be possible to reduce it, there will always be a small number of absolute psychopaths but don’t think they account for it all now. Dunno where I stand on prisons though beyond thinking there needs to be much more invested in the fabric of society so they are less necessary

[barleysugar]

Wow that really looks like a room made for death

[Bamnan]

think they can also be the “best” current option for minimising harm in the short term under our current system but I think it’s important to see it as a failure and not success

[Ruffers]

those bedposts are interesting

[Acorn]

nuance is such a difficult thing to retain, restate, etc.

I think sometimes the best we can do (and the best thing for our own sanity!) is to approach discussions in good faith (even if this leaves us open to being trolled), make it clear to who we’re talking to that what our thought processes are, try to understand what theirs are.

(also fully aware that people ruin this by approximating the idea in a disingenuous way, e.g. devil’s advocate bellends and so on).

[jont2001]

@Ruffers

those bedposts are interesting

wint (dril)