UK politics April 2018


#241

There have always been progressive politics though, even if the debate topics were slavery and universal suffrage rather than abortion and funding the NHS.


#242

this is true, but i have seen lots of liberals who are equally as good on trans rights. i know we rip the piss out of them on here but IRL i have met lots of liberals who are basically on the same wavelength as us lot, they just need that tiny bit of extra info/persuasion to take the final step into full on socialism/communism/whatever.

they are like puppies who need a gentle push off the doorstep so they can see how lovely and fun the garden is.


#243

Yeah, that’s entirely fair. Most people I know who’d identify as liberal are very decent people. I also liked how in her latest missive from the Terf Wars, Hadley Freeman complains about liberal men mansplaining trans rights to her, before going on to complain about men ignoring the issue.


#244

I dunno. How about something like all-women shortlists as a solution to gender representation in parliament?

  • Conservative: don’t see equalised representation as an issue.
  • Liberal: acknowledge the issue, but do not agree with all-women shortlists, preferring to promote enabling activities for encouraging participation by minorities across the board, etc.
  • Socialist: in favour of the direct action of all-women shortlists.

There are undoubtedly better examples. And the above won’t necessarily be an accurate summary of the Tory/LibDem/Labour positions, but there are loads of instances where there socially liberal won’t be socialism.


#245

These aren’t actually two contradictory positions though are they? You can engage with a debate without imposing yourself on it.


#246

that’s why i mention the economic/structural angle tho. i mean there are lots of tories who (on paper) aren’t racist or sexist but the economic/societal system they support plays a large part in oppressing the people they say they want to see liberated.


#247


#248

tbf you can’t insist upon and scorn due process at the same time


#249

The Whigs were the furthest “left” of the parties in Parliament in the first half of the C19th but certainly not anywhere near the left of the spectrum of political thought at the time generally.


#250

are you saying the whigs fell off


#251

Why do the Guardian want this war to happen so much? It’s SO fucking depressing.

You don’t need to caveat something IN CASE OF ERROR If you are 100% certain about it

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh


#252

What?

You ain’t seen nothing yet…


#253

Aye. For sure. But I guess that’s something to do with how much they would see themselves as responsible for the bigger picture. i.e. there’s that sense of detatchment there, and a conservative would likely not accept as much responsibility for the system as a socialist might. And, let’s be generous here for the sake of enquiry, that’s not an entirely unreasonable position for a pragmatist to take. It’s somewhat defeatist, though. But it’s where vast swathes of the population sit: not ‘bad people’, but not switched on to how much power they might have. And at this point I inevitably point to the fucked up nature of things like the monarchy, the HoL, and a lack of PR. People can, I think, be somewhat forgiven for having been ground down by our dysfunctional political setup.


As ever, I think there might be a small Scottish aside, here. Perhaps not as pronounced as it once was, and not entirely unique, but there seems to be a history of social conservatism (religious-led, without there being a state religion) mixed with economic ‘socialism’. Well, perhaps not socialism as such, but certainly state-led and collective responsibility and provision.

http://www.ournhsscotland.com/history/birth-nhsscotland

“Half of Scotland’s landmass was already covered by a state-funded health system serving the whole community and directly run from Edinburgh. The Highlands and Islands Medical Service had been set up 35 years earlier.”

http://www.ournhsscotland.com/history/birth-nhs-scotland/highlands-and-islands-medical-service

“The Highlands and Islands Medical Service was a unique social experiment in Britain long before the NHS. … State resources were directed to basic needs – providing a house, telephone, car or motor boat to get around and cover for further study and holidays. By 1929 there were 175 nurses and 160 doctors in 150 practices. Working in the most remote communities became an attractive career option for nurses and doctors. Not only was care being delivered to all sections of the community, it was of a standard higher than much of the rest of Britain. … The Highlands and Islands Medical Service revolutionised care for more than 300,000 people on half the land mass of Scotland. Unlike other local medical schemes, it was directly funded by the state and administered centrally by the Scottish Office in Edinburgh working with local committees. By 1948 it had been providing comprehensive care for 35 years. The rest of Britain was about to experience it for the first time.”

Blah blah. If I knew what the fuck I was talking about I might start mentioning Calvinism or that We’re all Jock Tamson’s Bairns.

Not entirely exclusive to Scotland, natch. E.g. Quakers were an influence on the origins of the Co-operative movement and trade unions as I understand it.

#notallreligiousconservatives :grinning:


#254

I’d accept that if it wasn’t palpably in bad faith. What she’s saying is, all of the men she knows don’t agree with her on this issue.


#255

“error”

isn’t that for the investigation to decide?


#256

No, that’s for the Cabinet Office to decide. There’s two separate things; the Ministerial Code, which the Cabinet Office looks after and the House of Commons Register of Interests, which is looked after by the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner. The Cabinet Office have already ruled on their part, but it’s the fact he didn’t register it correctly as an MP that Labour are referring him over.

Hence me saying earlier today that it’s ludicrous that the House of Commons Register has a higher level of standards than the Ministerial Code.


#257

ah, okay, that makes me more sense.

i’m also sure the cabinet office were really thorough.


#258

Undoubtedly


#259

Can someone explain this? Seeing lots of top bods sharing it, but i’m not sure what g’wan…


#260

i keep thinking of that blackadder quote, when baldrick asks why the war started and blackadder says “it was too much effort not to have a war.”

it really feels like that atm tbh. diplomacy is a ballache, cruise missiles are sexy and make us feel good.