Winter Brexit Thread: Our DiScontent

makeitstop
ohno

#45

well sure …but this puts the power to make the decision right back into the hands of Parliament though no?

Like, another option in the “May Deal or a No Deal” argument


#46

#47

I do hope that happens, but I am still worried they don’t know what they’re doing. That May v Corbyn debate is going to be a complete mess for them if they don’t have a well thought through position on pretty much everything. And I don’t feel I’ve seen any evidence yet that they’re doing anything more than hoping the whole shitshow falls to pieces.


#48

This was always the case.

EDIT: It was always the case for the first bit. For the second bit, then it has always been another option if parliament votes for the opportunity to vote for it.


#49

but it’s essentially a confirmation that ‘No Deal’ can’t really happen right? That the consequence/alternative to May’s plan is not defaulting to No Deal WTO but is actually withdrawing Article 50 altogether


#50

What is the story being told about our democracy?

One of the stories is how undemocratic it’s been for so long. For the seat count to have been so divergent from and unrepresentative of the voting patterns is pretty unforgivable. If UKIP had the seats to match the number of votes they had then they couldn’t have played the aggrieved card so well. The current SNP seat count is clearly OTT (I believe Thatcher claimed Scotland would have the right to declare independence of the SNP ever got a majority of MPs, such was the unlikelihood of that then). And the Tories should never have had the clear run through the 80s that they did.

That’s not the only problem that led to this, but it’s a massive part of it. If the demos has a choice but that voice isn’t heard, a democracy is on shaky ground.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/the-graveyard-of-first-past-the-post/

Nick. Fucking. Clegg. You had one* job!

*well, two, and you fucked them both up.


#51

That’s a very interesting angle and not one I’ve though of. It basically says dropping out with no deal isn’t an inevitable consequence of not accepting May’s deal but an avoidable choice by the government.


#52

I feel like this isn’t a story that’s told. It’s a truth but no one seems to want to engage with it because it would lead to PR and everyone is sure that’s some kind of filthy European system :grimacing:


#53

And if this cross party agreement to prevent no deal gets though… then article 50 must be cancelled if the deal gets voted down.


#54

Well, yes and no - It still requires PM/government to withdraw Article 50, which given the incumbent PM will almost certainly require her removal. It’s the one scenario where I could potentially see a brief national government of unity before to force it to happen before May’s Brexit day.


#55

No Deal could still happen, but it’s only May who has been pushing it as a consequence of failing to get her deal through parliament. May has also been using the threat of No Brexit to try and get the ERG MPs to back her deal as well.

As has always been the case, if MPs vote for the opportunity to vote in favour of A50 being rescinded, then it will be on the table. Conservative and DUP MPs have blocked any attempts to do this up til now.


#57

It also could mean that Labour’s position - to both oust May/force a GE & to renegotiate eventual terms of a Labour Brexit - might necessitate them first backing a withdrawal of A50 (& then presumably a 2nd referendum)

so this ECJ opinion (not ruling) may be significant yet


#58

is pr definitely good?

sort of think it’s a good idea to have mps who are heavily linked to a locality and who should be putting the interests of that area forward (not that they do, generally). not sure one is definitely more democratic than the other.


#60

You can still have that system under PR (as they do in the London Assembly elections).


#64

Quite. Labour are pretty adept at sending out two messages at the same time (Thornberry and Starmer the other day, as the most recent example).

And numerous pro-Corbyn people on here have had the gall to use triangulation as a slur to describe others… to say that it’s best to not put your neck on the line too early… to not startle the horses in the northern towns… that we should wait for the heel-turn.

I mean, the official Labour line is still, ultimately pro-Brexit, right? Just a… nicer Brexit (bit still sacking off freedom of movement, FFS!)?


#66

can a constituency vote out a politician they don’t like then?


#68

Hence my answer to @NickDS about how it could slightly alter Labour’s position

It essentially disarms May from running the clock down on Brexit cos Parliament can just put A50 through the shredder


#69

This has always been the case though.


#70

They can vote out the constituency AMs, yes.


#75

Sending out equivocal messages is not the same as triangulation.

The Labour line is, and has always been, that they would support the result of the referendum, but would only support a brexit deal if it met its (deliberately tough) six tests.