🎵 How Good Are They Really 🎵 Converge

[Caedus]

Can’t believe i missed this annoying. Got half a post saved somewhere for when this happened so i’ll finish it and post it when i can. Look forward to a proper read also. Total 5 of course.

[Murder]

Also, how many staggeringly influential bands have not been covered on HGATR?

I would venture to say Napalm Death not only essentially created grindcore (although you could argue Siege got there first), they are basically synonymous with it, despite covering A LOT more ground in their huge history.

[radbitt]

@SunnyB

I guess the reason it attracts the indie (and electronica in my case) kids too is because it is seen as so seminal and ends up as a good place to start.

I think this is maybe an example of what I’m talking about. Converge and Jane Doe, excellent as they are, are not seminal at all. The sound they are known for was already very well established by the time they came along - they didn’t invent anything. Jane Doe certainly spawned a lot of imitators, but it’s not a ground zero for anything, it’s just a really good example of an existing sound.

Personally I think there are other aspects of Converge that may draw in indie kids (artwork, lyrical content) where other hardcore records maybe wouldn’t, but again, this isn’t a bad thing at all. Just seems to me that their reputation is elevated to a place where things are attributed to them that possibly aren’t justified, which (for me at least) leads to other bands perhaps not being given the credit they deserve, or any credit at all

[Murder]

Definitely true that they didn’t invent that sound, and I agree with everything you say. Maybe the best analogue for Jane Doe is something like Loveless by My Bloody Valentine. Both artists took genres which were hardly new but also still pretty niche (Shoegaze and Metalcore) and did it a) really well, b) at the right time for crossover appeal and c) put their own distinctive spin on it to make it stand out.

[daggers]

@radbitt

but from my own, entirely anecdotal, experience, more casual fans seem to see them (and Jane Doe in particular) as the absolute pinnacle of hardcore and so it isn’t worth bothering with any other bands or albums because nothing is going to top it/them

Every Converge gig I’ve been to has been wall to wall hardcore fans

[radbitt]

Yeah it’s a decent analogy, although I’d possibly argue that MBV had more to do with ‘inventing’ shoegaze than Converge and metalcore (and that Loveless is perhaps more of a pinnacle of its genre than Jane Doe is) but yeah - all scenes will have records that cross over and it’s definitely a combination of a bunch of things, exactly like you say

[mrmrongov]

@radbitt

The sound they are known for was already very well established by the time they came along - they didn’t invent anything

this might be true, I’m not really in a position to say - but from my perspective seeing converge in terms of metalcore is missing what is good about them

[ToMp293]

My take on their appeal is that somehow they don’t come across as corny or hammy or OTT as other heavy hands. They feel genuine in their raw emotion - like Nirvana. Not sure whether this is their interviews or lyrics or artwork but it feels like they could be a really earnest indie or rock band that just happens to play face melting heavy music.

A lot of other bands in that sphere seem “put on” or cheesy or “metal bro”. Bloodmoon has taken them into the hammy zone IMO and it’s my least favourite by some way.

[radbitt]

Not entirely sure how you could know this unless you ran a some sort of survey, but sure. Personally I’ve seen them twice - once pre Jane Doe and once after it and my experience was there were definitely more metal kids second time round

[radbitt]

Personally see them as an excellent metalcore band but not much more than that. What am I missing do you think?

[Caedus]

I think it is a pretty seminal record to be honest; chaotic metallic hardcore was very well established but this was certainly another level along with a few others. I remember some fans being cross at the time (remember being in a que at the attic and someone said homewrecker was them selling out ) and i would agree that it attracted a lot of new fans and a lot of poor imitations, but the record itself was incredible. Which records would you put above it from that era?

They may not have invented anything but they honed it to perfection for that time i reckon. Everything about that record is exceptional and even though its probably not even my favourite converge LP. let alone metalcore/hardcore LP i think it’s got a very important place in hardcore history. They talk quite a lot about influences and scenes also, and played with great bands. Those early shows were all hardcore kids to!

[daggers]

tattoos, basketball jerseys, flat peak hats

[Caedus]

god there was this really tall dude at every gig in manchester early this century and that was his outfit every time. It was really irritating. Loved his spin kicks

[ToMp293]

I think this is fairly common isn’t it - there’s a “gateway” album that becomes the standard for the genre but is not necessarily the best in that field - somehow hits at exactly the right time in the right context by doing what it does extremely well.

Bit like “Is This It” by the Strokes

[radbitt]

Yeah kind of. Again though, I don’t really think that earnestness is something that is in short supply in hardcore. Maybe they do a better job of not tipping over into mawkishness than others idk. Most of the hardcore I like is pretty earnest tbh!

[ToMp293]

Yeh you’re right - maybe earnest isn’t the word. But it’s something along those lines for me that elevate them above the majority!

EDIT - I think it’s because someone like Magnitude (who I love) I can only imagine them doing straight edge hardcore but if I listen to something like A Single Tear I could imagine a singer songwriter completely reimagining it with those lyrics and it working. I don’t want to be that dickhead that says they “transcend the genre” but it’s close to that

[daggers]

rorschach - protestant lp

This is a good blueprint for Converge’s sound if you haven’t heard it already

[mrmrongov]

hahah well it’s hard to say (especially without putting in a very silly semi-mystical way), because it seems like what’s good about it is not falling into genre conventions - part of it is definitely pretty much exactly what @ToMp293 said.

(Not directly answering your question, but I also generally don’t like the metal in metalcore very much (stuff like integrity still has the widdly guitar solos); that might also be why I like you fail me more than any of their other stuff - it feels more like noise rock than metal to me. I came to converge from listening mainly to stoner/doom, then after that I think DEP and mathy stuff, and going back into earlier metalcore afterwards felt like reintroducing all the things I didn’t want in music at the time)

[radbitt]

@Caedus

Which records would you put above it from that era

Not totally sure about ranking records if I’m honest, but I guess in terms of metalcore reckon I’d definitely put the first two (possibly three) Integrity albums above it and also the Day Of Suffering one. Also the first Orchid and the first Yaphet Kotto in terms of being more ‘seminal’ for that chaotic sound. Possibly the first couple of Earth Crisis releases as well in terms of solidifying the metalcore sound (and pretty much becoming the dominant sound in late 90s/early 00s hardcore).

Botch and Acme more inventive than Converge from around that time too imo, Turmoil more intense (although they did stray over into tough guy hardcore a bit)

[mrmrongov]

will check some of these out and see if my impressions as a teenager have changed!